Corn and Ethanol.

[Valkyrie]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]u need to expand your knowledge of the world instead of just towing the line[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd102.htm[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Matrix III - Volume Two - Use of Sodium Fluoride for Population Behavior Control [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"It is a matter of record that sodium fluoride has been used for behavior control of populations. In an "Address in reply to the Governor's Speech to Parliament," [Victorian Hanstard, August 12, 1987, Nexus, Aug/Sept 1995], Mr. Harley Rivers Dickinson, Liberal Party Member of the Victorian Parliament for South Barwon, Australia, made a statement on the historical use of fluorides for behavior control. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Mr. Dickinson reveals that, "At the end of the Second World War, the United States Government sent Charles Elliot Perkins, a research worker in chemistry, biochemistry, physiology and pathology, to take charge of the vast Farven chemical plants in Germany. While there, he was told by German chemists of a scheme which had been worked out by them during the war and adopted by the German General Staff. This scheme was to control the population in any given area through mass medication of drinking water. In this scheme, sodium fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotising a certain area of the brain, and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him. Both the Germans and the Russians added fluoride to the drinking water of prisoners of war to make them stupid and docile." [/FONT]

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=14949

 

[Valkyrie]

http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=30694

The most disgusting aspect of the blowout in the Gulf of Mexico isn't the video images of oil-soaked birds or the incessant blather from pundits about what BP or the Obama administration should be doing to stem the flow of oil. Instead, it's the ugly spectacle of the corn-ethanol scammers doing all they can to capitalize on the disaster so that they can justify an expansion of the longest-running robbery of taxpayers in U.S. history.

http://www.slate.com/id/2122961/
Corn DogThe ethanol subsidy is worse than you can imagine.
Ethanol poses other serious difficulties for our energy economy. First, 8 billion gallons of ethanol will do almost nothing to reduce our oil imports. Eight billion gallons may sound like a lot, until you realize that America burned more than 134 billion gallons of gasoline last year. By 2012, those 8 billion gallons might reduce America's overall oil consumption by 0.5 percent. Way back in 1997, the General Accounting Office concluded that "ethanol's potential for substituting for petroleum is so small that it is unlikely to significantly affect overall energy security." That's still true today.

 

[Valkyrie]

http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=22732
The Great Corn Con
The final issue is quantity. Thirty-six billion gallons of ethanol a year sounds like a lot, but it's only 2.34 million barrels per day. And given ethanol's lower heat content—about two-thirds that of gasoline—the effective production would be equivalent to 1.54 million barrels of oil per day. The United States uses nearly 21 million barrels of oil per day, of which 12.54 million barrels are imported. Thus, even if American ethanol producers can miraculously achieve the Senate's goal of 36 billion gallons per year by 2022, they will be producing the equivalent of just 7.4 percent of America's total current oil needs and just 12.2 percent of its imports. That quantity of ethanol will not take America very far toward the oft-repeated goal of energy independence.

 

[James48843]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcHNYenN7OY

 

[Valkyrie]

can't make plastic and clothing fibers from ethanol. how much plastic/oil is in your e85 car and laptop?

http://www.grist.org/article/plastics/
So how much oil is consumed by this process? This is the tricky part. From what I can tell, plastic production is a bit like leather production: it's one part of a complicated harvest. When crude oil is refined, its various chemical bits are separated. Some become gasoline, some diesel fuel, some motor oil, and others the raw material for plastics. The best estimate I could find says that about 4 percent of the world's annual oil production of some 84.5 million barrels per day is used as feedstock for plastic, and another 4 percent or so provides the energy to transform the feedstock into handy plastic.

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/water_and_sustainability/bottled_water/bottled_water_and_energy.html
According to the plastics manufacturing industry, it takes around 3.4 megajoules of energy to make a typical one-liter plastic bottle, cap, and packaging.http://www.pacinst.org/topics/water...led_water/bottled_water_and_energy.html#_ftn2 Making enough plastic to bottle 31.2 billion liters of water required more than 106 billion megajoules of energy. Because a barrel of oil contains around 6 thousand megajoules, the Pacific Institute estimates that the equivalent of more than 17 million barrels of oil were needed to produce these plastic bottles.

 

[James48843]

can't make plastic and clothing fibers from ethanol. how much plastic/oil is in your e85 car and laptop?

.

Jesus oh petes - will you EVER realize the truth?

YES- we CAN.

We CAN and DO make plastics from CORN.

Behold NatureWorks: the largest lactic-acid plant in the world. Into one end of the complex goes corn; out the other come white pellets, an industrial resin poised to become—if you can believe all the hype—the future of plastic in a post-petroleum world.

The resin, known as polylactic acid (PLA), will be formed into containers and packaging for food and consumer goods. The trendy plastic has several things going for it. It’s made from a renewable resource, which means it has a big leg up—both politically and environmentally—on conventional plastic packaging, which uses an estimated 200,000 barrels of oil a day in the United States. Also, PLA is in principle compostable, meaning that it will break down under certain conditions into harmless natural compounds. That could take pressure off the nation’s mounting landfills, since plastics already take up 25 percent of dumps by volume. And corn-based plastics are starting to look cheap, now that oil prices are so high.
​

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/plastic.html#ixzz1BgZ8yEzw​

 

[James48843]

Now, I'm NOT saying we have to replace ALL uses of finite, limited oil with infinite, renewable corn.

There are some things that Oil will continue to be used for over the next 500 or 1,000 years, I'm sure.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WE DON'T NEED TO USE OIL FOR, BECAUSE WE HAVE ALTERNATIVES.

And powering cars is one of those things that it is easy to substitute RENEWABLE ETHANOL for NON-RENEWABLE, imported foreign oil.

We don't NEED to use oil for powering autos, when for another $100 bucks, we COULD be making every car a flex-fuel car, and we COULD be using lot more ethanol dometically made fuel.

Today, most of that ethanol is from corn.

Some of it is from municipal waste. No shotage of that, is there ?

Tomorrow- it will be from far more things. Like this wood to ethanol plant now operating in Pennsylvania.


But if YOUR car ONLY burns gasoline, you'll never benefit from all the various ways that ethanol will be made in the future.

 

[alevin]

If we're going to live in a plastic world, then oil will always be needed as base commodity. Lighter fractions (gas) will always be produced along with heavier fractions needed for other industries.

Cost of the unfractionated crude will continue to go up because cost of extraction will continue to rise due to remaining geological sources less and less easy to extract-tar sands, oil shale, deepwater off Brazil, west Africa.

Algae oil would help to replace need for geological crude imports, but unless society completely collapses or we have a total technological change where we no longer need oil of any fraction-for plastics or anything else......we still need oil. just a question of how much and how much it will cost as base commodity and whether we can afford to maintain an oil-based society at all, even if someday transportation system no longer requires it for fuel.

We still need a road system for internal distribution of production-think asphalt. How much road system do we need to keep in asphalt? We still need oil that much, if for no other reason. My agency's landbase already has more roads than we can afford to maintain-and they are mostly not paved. We've been downsizing the agency's road system nationally for at least 10 years now. can't afford the maintenance costs.

 

[Valkyrie]

NON-RENEWABLE, imported foreign oil.

another one of your politically controlled lies.
oil fields have been re-filling for decades. documented research proves it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=oil+fields+refilling&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=oil+fields+

oil is used to make asphalt roads. concrete roads are best for mpg, asphalt actually lowers mpg 10%. So lets see are there any concrete roads out there that can be made to waste fuel? why yes there are, enter the EPA and their noise regulations, lets cut grooves into the concrete hwy, using diesel engines, and tell the public its for rain safety. A lie, its for noise reduction and creates squirm in the tire tread to road surface contact point. What does this do, lowers mpg, increases tire wear. So now we have to buy more tires, which by the way, oil is used to make tires. and it makes u poorer.

u must own a lot of stock in ethanol companies with all of the lies and mistruths u push. u own stock in the company that makes plastic from corn? already been proven to be inefficient process and creates massive amounts of chemical residues which need to be disposed of. this includes all of the fertilizers to grow your corn. how much of this gets into the water supply?
what harmful chemicals will leach out into food and liquids from this type of plastic?

According to one environmental journalist, Robert Bryce, the production of ethanol, not bioplastics, causes, “higher global food prices, increased air pollution from burning ethanol-spiked fuels, spreading dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico from a surge of fertilizer use, and strong evidence that growing a gallon of corn ethanol produces just as many greenhouse gases as burning a gallon of gas.”

This ethanol scam is all about providing cheap fuel to developing countries so the ones in power can make billions while they make the american people poorer. All of this gives them power and control.

 

[Valkyrie]

http://environment.about.com/od/greenlivingdesign/a/pla.htm

According to Elizabeth Royte, writing in Smithsonian, PLA may well break down into its constituent parts (carbon dioxide and water) within three months in a “controlled composting environment,” that is, an industrial composting facility heated to 140 degrees Fahrenheit and fed a steady diet of digestive microbes. But it will take far longer in a compost bin, or in a landfill packed so tightly that no light and little oxygen are available to assist in the process. Indeed, analysts estimate that a PLA bottle could take anywhere from 100 to 1,000 years to decompose in a landfill.


Recyclers Can’t Mix PLA and Other Plastics
Another issue with PLA is that, because it is of different origin than regular plastic, it must be kept separate when recycled, lest it contaminate the recycling stream. Being plant-based, PLA needs to head to a composting facility, not a recycling facility, per se, when it has out served its usefulness. And that points to another problem: There are currently only 113 industrial-grade composting facilities across the United States.
Most PLA Uses Genetically Modified Corn
Another downside of PLA is that it is typically made from genetically modified corn, at least in the United States. The largest producer of PLA in the world is NatureWorks, a subsidiary of Cargill, which is the world’s largest provider of genetically modified corn seed. With increasing demand for corn to make ethanol fuel, let alone PLA, it’s no wonder that Cargill and others have been tampering with genes to produce higher yields. But the future costs of genetic modification to the environment and human health are still largely unknown and could be very high.

 

[TSPNerd]

Tomorrow- it will be from far more things. Like this wood to ethanol plant now operating in Pennsylvania.

I'd sure hope that tomorrow, the ethanol production will be from algae since the yields are much, much greater than anything else we've used so far.

 

[James48843]

http://environment.about.com/od/greenlivingdesign/a/pla.htm

According to Elizabeth Royte, writing in Smithsonian, PLA may well break down into its constituent parts (carbon dioxide and water) within three months in a “controlled composting environment,” that is, an industrial composting facility heated to 140 degrees Fahrenheit and fed a steady diet of digestive microbes. But it will take far longer in a compost bin, or in a landfill packed so tightly that no light and little oxygen are available to assist in the process. Indeed, analysts estimate that a PLA bottle could take anywhere from 100 to 1,000 years to decompose in a landfill.


Recyclers Can’t Mix PLA and Other Plastics
Another issue with PLA is that, because it is of different origin than regular plastic, it must be kept separate when recycled, lest it contaminate the recycling stream. Being plant-based, PLA needs to head to a composting facility, not a recycling facility, per se, when it has out served its usefulness. And that points to another problem: There are currently only 113 industrial-grade composting facilities across the United States.
Most PLA Uses Genetically Modified Corn
Another downside of PLA is that it is typically made from genetically modified corn, at least in the United States. The largest producer of PLA in the world is NatureWorks, a subsidiary of Cargill, which is the world’s largest provider of genetically modified corn seed. With increasing demand for corn to make ethanol fuel, let alone PLA, it’s no wonder that Cargill and others have been tampering with genes to produce higher yields. But the future costs of genetic modification to the environment and human health are still largely unknown and could be very high.

So...a PLA plastic bottle is going to last 100 years or 1,000 years in a landfill.


How many years will an oil-based plastic bottle last in a landfill?

 

[Valkyrie]

more inefficienies in growing corn for ethanol. u can live for a month with no food/corn but u can only live for 3-5 days with no water.
and how much energy is used to transport that water to the corn fields?

http://southeastfarmpress.com/it-takes-lot-water-grow-corn-crop

A 200-bushel corn crop uses about 600,000 gallons of water — nearly 3,000 gallons per bushel.”

“Not many Illinois farmers irrigate corn. This year, producers in some places grew corn on maybe 8 inches of rainfall between planting and harvesting. That means about 14 to 15 inches of water had to come from the soil.”

well there is a drought and then your E85 is $10/gallon and fuel station lines and rationing like in the 1970s. Thanks for pushing us back to the 70s.

http://gas2.org/2008/10/16/1000-gallons-water-per-1-gallon-ethanol-how-green-is-that/
If we look at the raw data, it becomes apparent that it takes 1 bushel of corn to make 2.5 gallons of ethanol. Now that doesn’t seem so bad, until you ask yourself, “How much water does it take to grow that bushel of corn?”

Let’s look at some more raw data. Did you know that it takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce that one bushel of corn? That’s a lot of water for 2 and half gallons of Ethanol. Let’s take this thinking a step further. If it takes 2,500 gallons of water to create 2.5 gallons of ethanol, then it takes 20,000 gallons of water, to make 20 gallons of Ethanol.
Think of it like this, the average firetruck holds up to 1,000 gallons of water. Now imagine 20 firetrucks lined up side by side, that’s how much water it takes to make 20 gallons of Ethanol.

 

[James48843]

more inefficienies in growing corn for ethanol. u can live for a month with no food/corn but u can only live for 3-5 days with no water.
and how much energy is used to transport that water to the corn fields?

http://southeastfarmpress.com/it-takes-lot-water-grow-corn-crop

A 200-bushel corn crop uses about 600,000 gallons of water — nearly 3,000 gallons per bushel.”

“Not many Illinois farmers irrigate corn. This year, producers in some places grew corn on maybe 8 inches of rainfall between planting and harvesting. That means about 14 to 15 inches of water had to come from the soil.”

well there is a drought and then your E85 is $10/gallon and fuel station lines and rationing like in the 1970s. Thanks for pushing us back to the 70s.

http://gas2.org/2008/10/16/1000-gallons-water-per-1-gallon-ethanol-how-green-is-that/
If we look at the raw data, it becomes apparent that it takes 1 bushel of corn to make 2.5 gallons of ethanol. Now that doesn’t seem so bad, until you ask yourself, “How much water does it take to grow that bushel of corn?”

Let’s look at some more raw data. Did you know that it takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce that one bushel of corn? That’s a lot of water for 2 and half gallons of Ethanol. Let’s take this thinking a step further. If it takes 2,500 gallons of water to create 2.5 gallons of ethanol, then it takes 20,000 gallons of water, to make 20 gallons of Ethanol.
Think of it like this, the average firetruck holds up to 1,000 gallons of water. Now imagine 20 firetrucks lined up side by side, that’s how much water it takes to make 20 gallons of Ethanol.

You have any idea how much water it takes to turn Canadian tar-sands oil into gasoline?

Nebraska Corn Board chair says gasoline requires 30 times as much water to produce as ethanol

Don't EVEN talk to me about how much water it takes. It takes MORE water to make a gallon of gas, than to make a gallon of ethanol.
A LOT more.

Here's some facts-



http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/blog2...30-times-as-much-water-to-produce-as-ethanol/

Takes a heck of a lot more water to produce a gallon of gasoline, than it does a gallon of ethanol.

 

[nnuut]

Water! HA, Global Freezing, Snowing and Raining have supplied us with plenty of H2O,
TOO MUCH!

 

[Minnow]

Well, much to my surprise, the laws of thermodynamics have not been refuted.

They've been argued with, and fists have been shook in their direction, and the government credit card has been used against them, but a gallon of gasoline is still a far more efficient energy medium than ethanol.

I lost count of how many different tricks or fallacious notions were used to refute and discount those laws but none of them stuck.

If anyone would care to take the discussion over to the politics thread (Valkyrie, feel free to sign up over there if you haven't already)... I'd like to explain a commonly held theory about why ethanol is such a political hot topic. Or we can stay here, and leave politics out of it. But all that can wait til after the weekend 'cuz baseball and softball practices are starting up on the panhandle for the wee ones.

Have a great weekend everybody (that means you too, Jim).

 

[nnuut]

Here comes the inflation, brace yourselves!:suspicious:

Jan. 24, 2011, 1:28 p.m. EST
Smithfield, Tyson downgraded over corn costs
Tobacco Banks Smithfield Foods Inc Tyson Foods Inc

By Matt Andrejczak, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Shares of Smithfield Foods and Tyson Foods lost ground Monday, failing to take part in U.S. stocks’ broad move higher, after an analyst cut her rating on the meat producers because of rising costs for corn and soybeans used to feed pigs and chickens.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/smithfield-tyson-downgraded-over-corn-costs-2011-01-24

 

[James48843]

Well, there you go Nnuut-

Jones also cut Tyson as the stock is close to her $18 stock-price target. She cited grain costs and weak prices for chicken breast meat and wings, which are being affected by bloated inventories.

In a separate report Friday afternoon, the U.S. government said December inventories of frozen chicken shot up 25% from the same month in 2009 — a bearish signal for future prices, according to Jefferies & Co. analyst Jeff Farmer.


“The bottom line is that a 25% increase in chicken cold-storage levels suggests that chicken prices are unlikely to rally in coming months,” Farmer said in a note to clients. Chicken prices typically go up around Memorial Day weekend, as consumers kick off for the summer grilling season.

You don't suppose the higher price of chickenfeed is due to the increase in chicken production, those chickens who are eating it, thereby causing an increase in chicken BLOATED INVENTORY, do you?


Nah. That's just chickenfeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQfy1SavdQ

 

[nnuut]

Retail meat prices climb in December

By Bruce Blythe, Business Editor

01/20/2011 03:48PM

Retail meat prices in December posted the biggest increase in seven years, with pork jumping the most in 14 years, contributing to accelerating food inflation that’s expected to take a larger chunk out of consumers’ pocketbooks this year.
A meat price index tracked by the Bureau of Labor Statistics rose 7.2 percent last month compared to December 2009, the largest year-over-year gain for that month since 2003, according to a report released today. Pork prices last month were up 11.2 percent from year-earlier levels, the largest increase for December since 1996, while beef rose 6.1 percent.
Rising meat prices reflect smaller cattle and hog herds, which forced meat processors to bid more aggressively for slaughter-ready animals. Livestock feeders cut herds starting in 2008 after the recession and a spike in corn prices above $7 a bushel led to deep losses. In mid-2010, the nation’s cattle herd shrank to a record low.
Prices for some cuts, such as bacon, reached record highs last year, and many analysts expect beef and pork to become even more expensive this year as high grain prices discourage adding animals to herds.

http://www.foodsystemsinsider.com/R...=1301203&fid=JANUARY_2011_3RD_FRIDAY&aid=2182

 

[nnuut]

You have a bad case of selective reading and comprehension.

Well, there you go Nnuut-




You don't suppose the higher price of chickenfeed is due to the increase in chicken production, those chickens who are eating it, thereby causing an increase in chicken BLOATED INVENTORY, do you?


Nah. That's just chickenfeed.

Jones also cut Tyson as the stock is close to her $18 stock-price target. She cited grain costs and weak prices for chicken breast meat and wings, which are being affected by bloated inventories.

In a separate report Friday afternoon, the U.S. government said December inventories of frozen chicken shot up 25% from the same month in 2009 — a bearish signal for future prices, according to Jefferies & Co. analyst Jeff Farmer.
“The bottom line is that a 25% increase in chicken cold-storage levels suggests that chicken prices are unlikely to rally in coming months,” Farmer said in a note to clients. Chicken prices typically go up around Memorial Day weekend, as consumers kick off for the summer grilling season.