Corn and Ethanol.

[James48843]

Color me skeptical.

Calling something a viable energy alternative yet it has to be heavily subsidized by the government to actually be viable?

Isn't that like someone claiming to have a perpetual motion machine and when I ask how it works, they say, "First you plug it in?"

You know how much petroleum is subsidized in this country? If we had to pay the true price for oil, it would be MUCH more expensive than ethanol is.

Here's a report that says, back in 2007, (when gasoline was selling for about $1.50 a gallon) that the true price then was around $5.28 a gallon.
http://www.iags.org/n1030034.htm

You can imagine what the true price would be today.

 

[James48843]

Yep. Thanks Lostdawg.

Again, the fact that corn is used for ethanol doesn't mean that it is removed from the food chain.

The production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel.

All of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. They get turned into animal feed.

One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

Heck, you could even make biodiesel from the corn oil if you tried.

 

[Lostdawg]

USDA site was not very helpful to dig this info out but another site did it for me. Here it is.
Source: Compiled by Earth Policy Institute with corn used for fuel ethanol from U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA)

1980 corn production 169 Million Tons 0.9 Million Tons used for Fuel Ethanol or 0.3%.
1990 corn production 202 Million Tons 8.9 Million Tons used for Fuel Ethanol or 3.1%.
2000 corn production 252 Million Tons 15.9 Million Tons used for Fuel Ethanol or 4.8%.
2009 corn production 312 Million Tons 104.1 Million Tons used for Fuel Ethanol or 26.0%.
Also note that corn used for fuel ethanol in a given year comes from the previous year's crop; therefore, the 104.1 million tons of corn used for fuel ethanol in 2009 is reported as 26 percent of the 2008 crop of 307 million tons. (Don't know the accuracy, but listed the source)

 

[Minnow]

Color me skeptical.

Calling something a viable energy alternative yet it has to be heavily subsidized by the government to actually be viable?

Isn't that like someone claiming to have a perpetual motion machine and when I ask how it works, they say, "First you plug it in?"

 

[WorkFE]

but just in those one or two days the ears were wonderful..Sweet and tender...

Oh the memories of our youth. I may have to hit up my local fields this summer.

 

[nnuut]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7scy70fTpag&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[nnuut]

The number of acres is relatively flat at about 90 million acres of corn planted.

Despite the actual number of acres planted being relatively flat, the VOLUME of corn has doubled due to better seeed and better techniques. Note that fertilizer use is down about 1/2 of what it was in the 1970's, yet production is double what it was then.

And this note- less than 20% of airable land in the US is in crop production of all crops. Most land is sitting idle in the US. We PAY farmers NOT to grow crops in many areas of the country. The price of crops now allows some of those subsidies we previousy paid to farmers to be reduced. But there is still a great deal of land in the USA NOT in production.

How much of this corn was used for ethanol?

 

[Buster]

The grain they would buy in Tunisia, in your example, would NOT be field corn. Field corn is used in cattle feed and other animal feed. It is not generally used for human consumption.

When I was a kid growing up in Essexville, MI...we would raid the farmer's fields of corn near by the house..We would have to wait until a certain time of the growing season and for only a couple of days..the corn would be perfect for roasting, boiling and then eating..too soon or too late it was crap..but just in those one or two days the ears were wonderful..Sweet and tender...

 

[James48843]

The food price rises you speak of?

Those are due to a number of factors, including the Russian wheat crop failures, the droughts across Africa and several Indian Ocean and Pacific rim countries DUE, IN PART, TO CLIMATE CHANGE, and lack of rice, wheat, and cerial grains in the middle east. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12119539

And the single greatest contributor to the rise in food prices, is the rise in the price of OIL, which increases transportation costs everywhere.

 

[James48843]

The grain they would buy in Tunisia, in your example, would NOT be field corn. Field corn is used in cattle feed and other animal feed. It is not generally used for human consumption.

 

[James48843]

Do you have stats that say whether corn acreage is staying the same or is it increasing?

The number of acres is relatively flat at about 90 million acres of corn planted.

Despite the actual number of acres planted being relatively flat, the VOLUME of corn has doubled due to better seeed and better techniques. Note that fertilizer use is down about 1/2 of what it was in the 1970's, yet production is double what it was then.

And this note- less than 20% of airable land in the US is in crop production of all crops. Most land is sitting idle in the US. We PAY farmers NOT to grow crops in many areas of the country. The price of crops now allows some of those subsidies we previousy paid to farmers to be reduced. But there is still a great deal of land in the USA NOT in production.

 

[James48843]

So James, can you explain why world food prices are at all time global high according to FAO? If corn prices are up, then farmers plant more corn. Do you have stats that say whether corn acreage is staying the same or is it increasing?

Even if production efficiency is going up-increasing value of corn to unsubsidized farmer means less acreage of competing grains, which means prices to consumer for those other grains going up too due to less acres in production. people getting priced out of basic food.

Governments are falling over food too expensive for poor people to buy. Tunisia is case in point, not the only country facing food riots. poor people don't buy meat. they buy basic grain-except when they can't afford that either.

I shared office space with Tunisian fellow students many years ago. Wonder how they are doing right now? probably better than some, probably middle class, but their government just fell over food prices-who knows what happens next.

sure do hope algae oil hurries up and becomes mainstream-doesn't require big footprint or prime farmland to produce it and the water can be recycled.

I will try and put together the info you request tonight.

Here is a graphic on the yeild per acre of Corn in the US. We're currently around 160 bushels per acre, double what it was in the 1970's.

Myth: Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

FACT: Wet mill ethanol production facilities are also know as corn refineries—and they also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil—all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption.

The corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed to livestock. Ethanol production also results in the production of distillers grains and gluten feed—both of which are fed to livestock as well, helping produce high quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad.

There is no shortage of corn. In 2007, U.S. farmers produced a record 13.1 billion bushel corn harvest—and some 2.3 billion bushels (about 13 percent) were used in ethanol production. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing average corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply. Source: http://ncga.com/killing-myths-ethanol

 

[nnuut]

I couldn't agree more Alevin!!

 

[alevin]

So James, can you explain why world food prices are at all time global high according to FAO? If corn prices are up, then farmers plant more corn. Do you have stats that say whether corn acreage is staying the same or is it increasing?

Even if production efficiency is going up-increasing value of corn to unsubsidized farmer means less acreage of competing grains, which means prices to consumer for those other grains going up too due to less acres in production. people getting priced out of basic food.

Governments are falling over food too expensive for poor people to buy. Tunisia is case in point, not the only country facing food riots. poor people don't buy meat. they buy basic grain-except when they can't afford that either.

I shared office space with Tunisian fellow students many years ago. Wonder how they are doing right now? probably better than some, probably middle class, but their government just fell over food prices-who knows what happens next.

sure do hope algae oil hurries up and becomes mainstream-doesn't require big footprint or prime farmland to produce it and the water can be recycled.

 

[Buster]

"...My, that's a lovely shade of algae you are wearing..."

Military, gov't increase investment in algae fuels​

SOUTH SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. – The forest green algae bubbling in a stainless steel fermenting tank in a suburban warehouse may look like primordial pond scum, but it is a promising new source of domestically produced fuels being tested on the nation's jets and warships.
In a laboratory just a few steps away from the warehouse, white-coated scientists for a company called Solazyme are changing the genetic makeup of algae to construct a new generation of fuels.
These "bioengineered" algae are placed into tanks, where they get fat on sugar beets, switch grass or a host of other plants. The sun's energy, which is stored in the plants, is transformed by the hungry algae into oil, which can be refined into jet fuel, bio-diesel, cooking oil or even cosmetics.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_on_re_us/us_algae_fuels_us_navy

 

[crws]

​

thanks for digging these up.

 

[James48843]

​

 

[alevin]

This is exactly the reason I am not in favor of GMO salmon. diversity of food supply. and also why I and many others are going with open-pollinated and/or heirloom seed companies for home veg gardening. maintain genetic diversity and supplier diversity in the food supply. Its small, but its a start.

Here's one company I do business with. there are others. last year many of the heirloom seed companies had a hard time keeping up with demand.

http://www.nativeseeds.org/ should see my sunflowers, I got seed from these guys. Apache Indian strain. 10-12 feet tall, huge flower heads. beautiful. will post a pic on my thread.

 

[James48843]

Time to break up the Monsanto monopoly, and ensure no single corporation controls more than 10% of the seed market.

How did we let this happen?

We need to break it up NOW!!

 

[crws]

Supply and demand will take care of the problem. I'm not saying ethanol is the answer, but farmers will begin to sell into the strength. These guys aren't dumb that run giant farms. Take a look at what has happened to cocoa prices since that hedge fund manager who tried to corner the cocoa market. Of course, he'll never tell you he lost money but he most likely will.

In the end, high corn and wheat prices are good for the USA because it is the only industry we have now that housing and autos are in secular bear markets.

The unfortunate part is that GMO corn has pervaded the market and Monsanto most likely owns the patent.
The higher prices only offset the debt incurred by the farmers temporarily, as this industry is just like oil- subsidized to the moon, and corn is in everything imaginable.
If the farmers were actually allowed to profit, they would do as you say and fight the hand(s) that feed them.
One can only hope....
If you haven't watched Food, Inc. it is an eye opener...

http://www.naturalnews.com/027921_Monsanto_monopoly.html

http://www.brazzilmag.com/component/content/article/54/8825-dow-dupont-monsanto-and-syngenta-take-over-brazils-corn.html

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/12/monsanto_uses_patent_law_to_co.html
Monsanto uses patent law to control most of U.S. corn, soy seed market
Published: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 8:07 PM Updated: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 8:18 PM
ST. LOUIS, Missouri -- Confidential contracts detailing Monsanto Co.'s business practices reveal how the world's biggest seed developer is squeezing competitors, controlling smaller seed companies and protecting its dominance over the multibillion-dollar market for genetically altered crops, an Associated Press investigation has found.

http://www.globegazette.com/news/local/article_c2186d58-9aa4-5248-8d81-fb2d5b0afe89.html