FUTURESTRADER
Active member
but they're still pushing the corn...planting most corn this year since 1944
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Corn and Ethanol.
- Thread starter Show-me
- Start date
Show-me
Well-known member
Corn, Ethanol, and now food inflation.
As this applies to my ethanol rant I will post it here also.
"Costs have surged for fuel and petroleum-based products and for the corn used to feed dairy cows, a side effect of increases in the production of ethanol. Bower said he now pays about $180 a ton to feed his 500 dairy cows, up from $115 a ton a year ago, an increase of more than 50 percent."
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070330/farm_scene.html?.v=2&printer=1
As this applies to my ethanol rant I will post it here also.
"Costs have surged for fuel and petroleum-based products and for the corn used to feed dairy cows, a side effect of increases in the production of ethanol. Bower said he now pays about $180 a ton to feed his 500 dairy cows, up from $115 a ton a year ago, an increase of more than 50 percent."
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070330/farm_scene.html?.v=2&printer=1
The_Technician
Active member
Thank God for switchgrass, or everything you eat will double in price....there have been reports that there isn't enough vegetation to produce enough ethanol....hydrogen is the way to go.....or direct solar.....in one form or the other (wind, hydrothermal, hydro)
Show-me
Well-known member
The White Elephant continues.
Well there you go, the President went to Brazil this week to work out a pact with them for Ethanol. It must be finally soaking in that the U.S. does not have the ability to produce enough Ethanol to do the job and the higher corn prices will start being felt in "food inflation". Not good for the little guy. Now we are dependent on yet another foreign country for our fuel or fuel additive. :nuts:
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for efficient energy, clean energy, and creating jobs for the rural communities. At what price though?
Now if I am correct this pact hurts the U.S. farmer, by lowering demand and price, but the oil companies still get the tax credit for blending the Ethanol into the fuel. Brilliant!!! :nuts:
Ethanol blended fuel is less fuel efficient (mpg) than straight gasoline and more harmful to the environment because we use fossil fuel to make the ethanol. The conversion, in btu, should remain the same unless they improve the process. IMHO the process has already been tweaked to the max by the industry. Now the only way to make it efficient is to have cheaper energy to convert the corn to ethanol or develop a better crop that has more sugar in it. That's all ya got.
"David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs."
These findings were published in 2001 when fuel and corn were both much cheaper.
By the evidence I have been reading we are better off burning straight gasoline instead of Ethanol blended gasoline because it is more fuel efficient (mpg) and cost less to make (both in dollars and in harming the environment). Companies are looking for the cheapest fuel they can burn to make their Ethanol...................COAL. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/16834568.htm
In my area there are 4 or 5 ethanol plants operating or laying ground work and they all use NATURAL GAS to cook the mash. We're doomed!
Well there you go, the President went to Brazil this week to work out a pact with them for Ethanol. It must be finally soaking in that the U.S. does not have the ability to produce enough Ethanol to do the job and the higher corn prices will start being felt in "food inflation". Not good for the little guy. Now we are dependent on yet another foreign country for our fuel or fuel additive. :nuts:
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for efficient energy, clean energy, and creating jobs for the rural communities. At what price though?
Now if I am correct this pact hurts the U.S. farmer, by lowering demand and price, but the oil companies still get the tax credit for blending the Ethanol into the fuel. Brilliant!!! :nuts:
Ethanol blended fuel is less fuel efficient (mpg) than straight gasoline and more harmful to the environment because we use fossil fuel to make the ethanol. The conversion, in btu, should remain the same unless they improve the process. IMHO the process has already been tweaked to the max by the industry. Now the only way to make it efficient is to have cheaper energy to convert the corn to ethanol or develop a better crop that has more sugar in it. That's all ya got.
"David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs."
These findings were published in 2001 when fuel and corn were both much cheaper.
By the evidence I have been reading we are better off burning straight gasoline instead of Ethanol blended gasoline because it is more fuel efficient (mpg) and cost less to make (both in dollars and in harming the environment). Companies are looking for the cheapest fuel they can burn to make their Ethanol...................COAL. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/16834568.htm
In my area there are 4 or 5 ethanol plants operating or laying ground work and they all use NATURAL GAS to cook the mash. We're doomed!
Birchtree
Well-known member
This country boy has been buying farm machinery stocks for the last several years trying to build a substantial position to participate no matter what commodity they use the most of - it requires machinery to gather. Corn is an important factor in the food and beverage industry, and it also influences prices for other foodstuffs such as meat and poultry. That's important because food has a weighting of about 14% in the CPI. That is considerably more than energy's weighting of 8.5% and second only to shelter's weighting of 32%. Shelter is heavily influenced by rents, which face downward pressure as owners of unsold homes put them up for rent. So inflation is ebbing. It was up just 0.5% at an annual rate in the past six months.
ayla
Member
Forget the cost in acreage for ethanol. Whatever the cost, at least we will not be sending our dollars to the Middle East (including Iran) which is what our oil addiction is basically doing now. It has nothing to do with the environment. It is hard for me to be convinced that there is any other reason Bush is pushing so hard for alternative fuel (and going against the oil lobby) if he didn't see the real problem being that our oil addiction is funding terrorism.
Give capitalism a chance. Now that the oil companies have to deal with real competition from ethannol, they are forced to look for and find the cheapest best way which will be accomplished using smarter and smarter technology.
Corporations don't do well at finding new paths that are optimal for the country (which is why they MUST be monitored) but they do very well at finding the cheapest way of following paths that are set for them IMO.
Give capitalism a chance. Now that the oil companies have to deal with real competition from ethannol, they are forced to look for and find the cheapest best way which will be accomplished using smarter and smarter technology.
Corporations don't do well at finding new paths that are optimal for the country (which is why they MUST be monitored) but they do very well at finding the cheapest way of following paths that are set for them IMO.
James48843
Well-known member
That's an old study from 2001. More recent advances have it now pegged the other way. This one, from Berkeley shows that corn can be a significant net gain. But other sources may do even better.
There is another flaw- both these studies assume that the tractor plowing the fields, and the trucks carrying to market, are both going to be using oil. I would venture to guess that when we really begin to develop bio fuels, that the tractors and the trucks may run on either E85, or on a bio diesel product. Both of which would lower the oil footprint, and make it more in renewable alcohol's favor.
Not sure if corn is the long-term solution though, sugar beets here in the north also hold promise.As does other materials. Corrn sounds good now, but we can grow other things that might be better. Brazil does it with sugar cane. Sugar has promise.
Griffin
Well-known member
ATCJeff
Well-known member
Show-me
Well-known member
Ethanol from corn: burning money and oil
US politicians have been subsidising corn (maize) production, and its conversion to ethanol, for years. The idea is that it can be added to petrol where it both acts as fuel itself, and makes the petrol burn more efficiently and cleanly. Since it is not derived from fossil fuel it should reduce greenhouse gas emissions and help reduce American dependence on Middle Eastern oil.
http://www.igreens.org.uk/ethanol_from_corn_.htm
US politicians have been subsidising corn (maize) production, and its conversion to ethanol, for years. The idea is that it can be added to petrol where it both acts as fuel itself, and makes the petrol burn more efficiently and cleanly. Since it is not derived from fossil fuel it should reduce greenhouse gas emissions and help reduce American dependence on Middle Eastern oil.
http://www.igreens.org.uk/ethanol_from_corn_.htm
Last edited:
Show-me
Well-known member
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
Show-me
Well-known member
A couple quick thoughts. I read a couple articles today.
Headlines today are that 5 ethanol plant are in the planning stages for my area. Ag experts say that "There ain't enuff corn to supply them all." Blue collar guys at work that are part time farms say "Bring on the $8 corn." Point is the corn supply will be very badly depleted and the amount of fertilizer and water required to make a good crop will skyrocket. Demand for seed corn, fert., water, fuel, and crop chemicals will all be stretched. Prices for all will go up as demand goes up and they will still not have enough corn to supply that many plant. Water table will drop because farmers will buy irrigation pivots to increase production.
Now the big one some do not see coming.........................How many food and drink products are sweetened with "high fructose corn syrup"? Plan on paying a bit more for those items. How about cereals? Corn syrup equals corn ethanol. The byproduct of ethanol can be feed back to livestock, but you can bet meat and dairy prices will go up because of the marketing hype.
How much of the price the ethanol producer get for their product is tax subsidies? Brazil makes ethanol work because they are in the perfect spot for..........sugar cane, the most perfect plant for ethanol.
On the surface ethanol looked good to me, but now I am beginning to see a different path. Ethanol in the US is a Pandora's box. Soil erosion, depleted water table, anhydrous ammonia, farm chemicals, green field margins, chemical run off, increase fuel usage, higher food prices, and more tax money to subsidize with.
Here is another kicker. To produce ethanol it requires more fossil fuel btu's that is returned from the ethanol. In Brazil it is the opposite because they use the sugar cane. Transportation cost go up because ethanol can not be piped. To corrosive.
We will be paying more for ethanol and doing more damage to the environment than if we would just burn the fossil fuels.
I am getting the feeling we just bought a big white elephant.
Feel free to poke holes in my rant.
Headlines today are that 5 ethanol plant are in the planning stages for my area. Ag experts say that "There ain't enuff corn to supply them all." Blue collar guys at work that are part time farms say "Bring on the $8 corn." Point is the corn supply will be very badly depleted and the amount of fertilizer and water required to make a good crop will skyrocket. Demand for seed corn, fert., water, fuel, and crop chemicals will all be stretched. Prices for all will go up as demand goes up and they will still not have enough corn to supply that many plant. Water table will drop because farmers will buy irrigation pivots to increase production.
Now the big one some do not see coming.........................How many food and drink products are sweetened with "high fructose corn syrup"? Plan on paying a bit more for those items. How about cereals? Corn syrup equals corn ethanol. The byproduct of ethanol can be feed back to livestock, but you can bet meat and dairy prices will go up because of the marketing hype.
How much of the price the ethanol producer get for their product is tax subsidies? Brazil makes ethanol work because they are in the perfect spot for..........sugar cane, the most perfect plant for ethanol.
On the surface ethanol looked good to me, but now I am beginning to see a different path. Ethanol in the US is a Pandora's box. Soil erosion, depleted water table, anhydrous ammonia, farm chemicals, green field margins, chemical run off, increase fuel usage, higher food prices, and more tax money to subsidize with.
Here is another kicker. To produce ethanol it requires more fossil fuel btu's that is returned from the ethanol. In Brazil it is the opposite because they use the sugar cane. Transportation cost go up because ethanol can not be piped. To corrosive.
We will be paying more for ethanol and doing more damage to the environment than if we would just burn the fossil fuels.
I am getting the feeling we just bought a big white elephant.Feel free to poke holes in my rant.
