TSP Transfer Fees and/or Transaction Limit Discussion

QUESTION: Is this article all true, partially true, or just plain slanted?Or is it even pertinent to the question at hand? Underlines, italics, etc, are mine. I don't want to pay a fee, but if they could move the closing time to the same as the fee-based brokers, that may not be too disconcerting...??

Retirement Plan Lucked Out the Day After Markets Fell

By Stephen Barr
Thursday, April 19, 2007

It was a lucky day at the Thrift Savings Plan.


On March 5, the overseas markets were falling, and worried federal
employees filed orders to sell shares they held in the international
stock index fund, known as the I Fund, at the TSP.

In the biggest transaction ever for the I Fund, the employees liquidated
stock valued at $865 million.

The Asian and European markets were closed when the TSP sent the sell
orders to the fund manager in San Francisco at 2 p.m. Eastern time, the
standard practice. But overnight, the U.S. stock market looked brighter,
and the overseas markets opened strongly.

The I Fund shares sold on March 6 were up a percentage point,
not down
as expected,
and reaped $8 million in trading credits. By the time the
books were settled,
the $8 million earned that day erased almost all of
the fund's year-to-date trading costs
.

"We got very fortunate," said Tracey A. Ray, the TSP's chief investment
officer.

Normally when selling stocks, the TSP absorbs commissions, price
differences and other transaction costs. All holders of I Fund accounts
pay for the trading costs, even if they did not sell or buy. To give a
sense of the stakes involved in such transactions, Ray noted that the I
Fund had trading costs of $13 million in 2006.

The $8 million credit last month "could have easily gone the other way"
and could have been "money out the window," she said.

The TSP does not restrict government employees' rights to sell and buy
stocks and bonds offered in their retirement program, but officials
clearly wish they could educate more employees that overreacting to
market changes can be risky and that investors come out ahead when they buy and hold for the long term.

Although the I Fund hit a low March 5, it is up 11.3 percent since then
-- and as a result, employees getting back into the I Fund in recent
weeks ended up paying higher prices that could have been avoided if they
had decided to stand pat.

The churning in the I Fund was substantial. Ray said TSP participants
pulled $1.5 billion out of the fund in the first three days of March,
then transferred $1.2 billion into the fund over the rest of the month.
A record 268,213 interfund transfers -- in which employees moved money
from one fund to another in the TSP -- were recorded in March, she said.

Ray described the I Fund trading flurry at this week's meeting of the
Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board, which oversees the TSP. Her
report prompted board Chairman Andrew M. Saul to express concern that
TSP computer systems could be significantly stressed if a catastrophic
or dramatic swing in world stock markets led federal employees to sell
parts of their portfolios.

TSP officials said they are drawing up plans on how to handle a
stressful event and ensure that the agency's computers can carry out
trades. The TSP has switched from a monthly to a daily valuation system
since the last major disruption to the stock markets -- the Sept. 11,
2001, terrorist attacks.

Saul also urged TSP officials to focus on the growth of the TSP --
assets increased by about $10 billion in the most recent quarter -- and
ensure that its computer systems and offerings keep pace with the
program's expanding size.

At the end of March, the TSP had more than $213 billion in assets and
more than 3.73 million participants.

 
QUESTION: Is this article all true, partially true, or just plain slanted?Or is it even pertinent to the question at hand? Underlines, italics, etc, are mine. I don't want to pay a fee, but if they could move the closing time to the same as the fee-based brokers, that may not be too disconcerting...??

As far as I know, everything in that article is true. The only slant I can see is how they made it sound like the trading costs are huge. If you ever read the FRTIB meeting minutes, you'll see that the trend in costs is that the fees are getting less and less of a percentage of each fund. Right now, the fees are really unnoticed because it is calculated into the price of each fund on a daily basis. The article fails to mention anything about the almost unnoticeable fees by just giving big numbers and ignoring the small fraction those numbers represent.
 
I am going to say this ONE TIME. And I want EVERYBODY to understand what I am about to say- and think about it. Hard.

Here goes:

FACT #1:
In March, (*that's the entire 31 days of March) roughly 35,000 investors moved $1.7 billion dollars out of "I" fund.

Now- that's 35,000, out of 3,700,000 investors who are in the TSP.

LESS THAN 1% of INVESTORS. Do you understand that? Less than 1% of people moved $1.7 billion. OUT OF $229 BILLION. That's less than 1% of the investment funds, OVER A WHOLE MONTH. LESS THAN 1% of INVESTORS MOVED LESS THAN 1% OF THE MONEY. AND IT COST THE TSP BOARD, --AND YOUR FELLOW INVRESTORS-- ALMOST NOTHING TO DO THAT.


FACT#2:

EVERYONE- Understand that the TSP MADE 59 million dollars last year from Loan fees, and had a TOTAL expense of administration of around 73 million. So we are talking about it costing just 14 million dollars (above the Loan fees) to run the entire TSP system. That includes the costs to receive money, buy stocks, maintain accounts, run the call center, staff the DC office, handle distributions of funds, make loans, record court orders, Etc. Etc. Etc.

That is UNHEARD OF FOR LOW COSTS.


If the TSP Board wants to charge fees to move funds, it has NO RELATION TO THE COSTS. None. Nada.

It has EVERYTHING to do with people THINKING ON THEIR OWN--not following what the current head of the TSP board THINKS is the way people should handle their money.

He thinks they should only buy and hold. Period.

So if he wants to impose fees, THE ONLY REASON IS TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM HANDLING THEIR OWN MONEY.


Now- there. I've said it.

Think about that for a while.

You ought to be mad as heck at ANYONE who even MENTIONS that there should be fees for interfund transfers.

USE FACTS-

TELL PEOPLE .... Get your co-workers informed with FACTS.

NNNNNOOOO! TO USER FEES.

CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN, GIVE HIM/HER the FACTS.

And say NO TO USER FEES.

BRAVO James. Could not have said it better myself.
 
I'm still not convinced there is any transaction fee whatsover for each individual account. It's all done electronically. How do we know they are not paying a set fee?
 
I'm still not convinced there is any transaction fee whatsover for each individual account. It's all done electronically. How do we know they are not paying a set fee?
We ARE already paying fees. Each fund had $0.30 per ($1,000 account balance) charged in administrative expenses in 2006. You can find that at: http://www.tsp.gov/rates/fundsheet-cfund.pdf .

If that seems "insignificant", here's the math, based on the Fund sheets as of December, 2006:

G fund assets totaled $74.9 billion
F = $11.4 billion
C = $78.8 billion
S = $17.9 billion
I = $23.6 billion
L funds totaled $16.9 billion

Grand Total = $223.5 billion

Admin expense = 30 cents per $1,000 balance
$223.5 billion divided by 1,000 = $223.5 million
$0.30 X $223.5 million = $67,050,000 ($67.05 million)

Using the C Fund sheet as the example, the returns for this fund is shown as 11.86%, (since inception). The corresponding returns for the S&P 500 Index is 12.16%. This .3% difference is where they got the admin fees.
 
TSP board backs budget hike for tech upgrade
By Amelia Gruber September 17, 2007

From Govexec

The board overseeing the federal employee Thrift Savings Plan on Monday backed a 24 percent increase in the 401(k)-style program's budget for fiscal 2008, largely to support a massive project to modernize systems for processing transactions.
Board members approved a budget of $108.4 million for the fiscal year that starts Oct. 1, marking an increase of $20.8 million over the $87.6 million approved for fiscal 2007. The TSP's budget has declined in recent years even as assets have grown to more than $224 billion. But plan officials told board members that investments in new technology are necessary to ensure the program is secure and capable of weathering events ranging from a plunge in the market to a terrorist attack or natural disaster.
"This in my view represents a budget that makes sense," said TSP Executive Director Gregory Long. "It's prudent, and it represents the interests of participants."

Mark Hagerty, the plan's chief information officer, stressed that the current technology has performed well in terms of handling influxes of transactions and meeting trading deadlines. But he recommended that officials "skate ahead of the puck" by making upgrades before they become more urgent.
Reviews of the TSP's current technological capacities indicate that most of the plan's computing platforms are at or near the end of their life cycles, Hagerty said. Also, some systems are not adequately backed up, and certain inefficiencies need to be addressed, he said.

He proposed a solution that would take about two years and require about $15 million in capital investments. The plan would involve replacing mainframe computers with newer technology offering more memory and faster processors, consolidating and replacing servers, modernizing IT networks and improving storage capacity.

The upgrades will have such benefits as allowing the encryption of data "at rest" in servers and enabling a mandatory switch to the next generation of the Internet, known as Internet Protocol version 6, Hagerty said. The modernization also is expected to help decrease the time needed to transfer operations should a system fail.

The bulk of the cost will be felt in fiscal 2008, Long said. But costs will not decrease as much as might be anticipated the next year because hardware and software maintenance fees will increase after the first year.
TSP officials projected that the plan's overall budget will go down slightly in fiscal 2009, falling by $1.3 million from fiscal 2008 to $107.1 million.
Other projects on tap for the next fiscal year include a redesign of TSP's Web site. The changes should be complete within a year, Long said.
Plan officials already are implementing steps to make that site more secure. Participants will receive new account numbers by Oct. 1. Currently, the system uses Social Security numbers to identify accounts. The change has turned out to be labor intensive, with calls already coming in from concerned participants, plan officials said. Long said he expects continued pushback from some participants reluctant to have an extra number to learn. But he emphasized the necessity of the change.

swsop
 
Dang Offtrack!

I didn't want to get a headache about another attak on IFTs this morning!
:(

But, I shouldn't be an ostrich and have my head in the sand regarding these attacks on those of us who want to frequently move our TSP funds.
 

Here is my response after reading most of the comments:

Before you make anymore posts about this subject make sure you know what you are talking about. If you don't know the following do some reading first:

1. What IFT stands for
2. Difference between Day Trading and Market Timing
3. Admin expense fees ALREADY being paid by everyone per $1,000 regardless of any trading
4. How the L funds work
5. What I Fund Fair Valuation (FV) is
6. The percentage of those who are considered frequent traders and the percentage impact they create (minimal)

I'm sure i'm leaving some out. If you can't answer even one of these then take some time to educate yourself. I suggest going here: www.tsptalk.com and you will learn a lot and may change your opinion on imposing fees on trades. After reading all the comments on fedsmith, it seems the ones who think fees should be imposed are the least educated on the TSP retirement system.
 
It seems to me that IF someone wants to charge me a fee per transaction then I should be entitled to make my IFT right up to the closing bell. Since we are currently locked out at noon, that hardly qualifies as day trading. How often has the market done a 180 after the noon deadline leaving us with that hopeless feeling of dread knowing the overseas market will tank that night and further tanking by the US market the next day. Day trading?? Hardly! If you don't pull the trigger at noon, you are locked in for another day and a half in whatever fund(s) you are in.

I would be willing to accept a fee if it gives me the ability to do an IFT by 3:45pm. Maybe they should make it a free transaction before noon, charge a fee after noon until market close. I suspect many of us would elect to make our moves near the closing bell and incur the fee!
 
Here is my response after reading most of the comments:

Before you make anymore posts about this subject make sure you know what you are talking about. If you don't know the following do some reading first:

1. What IFT stands for
2. Difference between Day Trading and Market Timing
3. Admin expense fees ALREADY being paid by everyone per $1,000 regardless of any trading
4. How the L funds work
5. What I Fund Fair Valuation (FV) is
6. The percentage of those who are considered frequent traders and the percentage impact they create (minimal)

I'm sure i'm leaving some out. If you can't answer even one of these then take some time to educate yourself. I suggest going here: www.tsptalk.com and you will learn a lot and may change your opinion on imposing fees on trades. After reading all the comments on fedsmith, it seems the ones who think fees should be imposed are the least educated on the TSP retirement system.

Whoa, Wasaki...

All are welcome to post in this thread, no matter what your level of understanding. This is for the purposes of education, discussion and activism. When we come to the place where we all have complete understanding, then I guess none of us will need to post anything.

Please express all your opinions, pro or con. It's the way we learn :o.
 
Whoa, Wasaki...

All are welcome to post in this thread, no matter what your level of understanding. This is for the purposes of education, discussion and activism. When we come to the place where we all have complete understanding, then I guess none of us will need to post anything.

Please express all your opinions, pro or con. It's the way we learn :o.

That was my response on fedsmith to the survey on TSP fees which offtrack shared with everyone . That isn't in response to anyone on here. Sorry if that wasn't clear in the post, I'll go back and edit it
 
That was my response on fedsmith to the survey on TSP fees which offtrack shared with everyone . That isn't in response to anyone on here. Sorry if that wasn't clear in the post, I'll go back and edit it

That's cool! Those remarks are definately appropriate for FedSmith!!! :)

Well Done!
 
I was listening to some financial guru (I believe his name was Edelman??) on the radio this weekend and he said the L-funds stands for Loser Funds. His point was the bond portion of the funds really reduces your returns over time.
 
I also gives a thumbs down to the bonds being part of the L funds. If it wasn't for that, I might actually invest in the L funds to diversify my portfolio. Any decent financial management company wouldn't be investing in bonds unless the interest rates are dropping. We may be going that way in the coming months but that sure hasn't happened since the inception of the L funds.
 
The FAQ regarding Fair Valuation has been modified... note the date! See the bold text added in the body of the article!:eek:

TSP: FAQs, Ch#4, Rates & Share Prices; 2007-09-14
... C Fund. The percentage of change in the value of the S&P 500 index from the ... site at www.mscidata.com. The EAFE index value for the previous business day is updated on ... the preliminary estimate of the closing EAFE index value for the previous business day. The actual closing ... of the foreign markets. This process, known as "fair valuation" or "fair value pricing" occurs when there are large ...
http://www.tsp.gov/faq/faq4.html
Rank: 1000 Size: 16418k Modified:



6. Why doesn't the change in the I Fund share price always correspond to the EAFE Index which it tracks?
Participants have asked why, on some days, the change in the I Fund share price reported by the TSP does not match the change reported for the Morgan Stanley EAFE (Europe, Australasia, Far East) index, which the I Fund tracks. This happens when the Board's investment manager, Barclays Global Investors (BGI) reprices its EAFE Equity Index Fund, in which the TSP invests, after the close of the foreign markets. This process, known as "fair valuation" or "fair value pricing" occurs when there are large U.S. market or currency movements between the time the foreign markets close and 4:00 p.m. eastern time, when BGI's share prices are determined.

Fair value pricing is used by mutual funds when there is a gap between the time the index closes and the time the fund is priced to reflect the index. Fair value pricing was implemented to protect long-term shareholders from short-term traders attempting to profit from price difference between the index's closing price and the price of the fund before it was repriced. While it causes some variation in daily pricing, the variation is generally reversed the next day.
Fair value pricing in the TSP's I Fund occurs less than 20% of the time. The TSP is meant to be a long-term retirement savings account, not a short term trading vehicle. Mutual funds use fair value, redemption fees, and limits on numbers of trades to prevent market timing activity and the resulting excessive trading costs from hurting the performance of the fund. To date, the TSP has chosen to use only fair value pricing, but that may change in the future.
Fair valuation ensures that traders cannot "market time" the I Fund by making investment decisions based on the "stale" prices, thus diluting the returns of other participants who invest in the I Fund. Because the EAFE uses the foreign market closing prices to calculate its values, its price change will differ from the TSP's on those days.
 
JMHO, but I'm betting this "change" will probably be included in order to pay for their multi-million dollar "upgrade". :suspicious:
 
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