Corn and Ethanol.

[luv2read]

LOL! I'm with you, Norm!

The only furnaces that should be burning food for fuel are living ones!

 

[malyla]

Yep I'm sure that corn is making me fat and I know for sure we are going to be paying $3 a gallon for fresh water.
You know My grand Mother lived to be 97 and ate all this stuff, I just don't understand I guess, I'll find out when my heart explodes, I suppose?:laugh:View attachment 3945

Yes, corn is making america fat and it's wonderful that your grandmother lived to 97 (mine was 97 also), but after watching King Corn, you will realize that your grandma was not eating corn fed beef, and drinking high fruitose corn syrup in her sweet teas/soda. It's only been since the 1980's until today that our food in saturated with corn. And it's genectically modified corn that does not taste good until refined. The farmers who grow it do not eat it. Thats chilling.

 

[Silverbird]

Sugar Ethanol Production in Brazil
warning, some descriptions of working conditions are late night TruTV
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/marketsmag/mm_1107_story3.html

 

[nnuut]

I'll research that, it's news to me. We didn't eat Horse Corn either, tough. They better not mess with the Bourbon!!:nuts:

 

[Silverbird]

I'll research that, it's news to me. They better not mess with the Bourbon!!:nuts:

It's not the Bourbon you have to look out for, but the Cola, Sweet BBQ sauce and everlasting baked goods. And yes, it's made from feed corn, bleah.

 

[James48843]

If you think there's not going to be a war over fresh water....

Regarding the Great Lakes compact- that has been in the works for 20 years. Finally coming to fruition.

We've got the water- and it's here for anyone who wants to set up shop and bring jobs. But don't think you're going to ship our water to the great southwest, or even to Atlanta. If you want our water, come bring your jobs here, and we'll share it with you here.

To paraphrase another famous (and rather dry) location to the west of us...

What happens in the great lakes basin, stays in the great lakes basin.

I'll drink to that.

 

[tom1tom1]

Grew up in Iowa. The corn thing is not the farmer's fault. Corn for fuel does not make sense when several other options would be the best. Corperate america dictates what a small farmer can offer.

 

[alevin]

To continue the cane-ethanol discussion, including labor conditions in Brazil.....http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_marinis&sid=a3Q.NUCiqEPg
Longterm I do believe cellulose-based ethanol (switchgrass, wood) will have to take ethanol market dominance. too much investment in water, fertilizer required for corn-except in water-rich regions like Great Lakes perhaps, certainly water supply and use-efficiency is an issue in the interior west where snowpacks are already declining on longterm basis. Indian rice farmers are leaving the land due to fertilizer costs skyrocketing-leading to continued shortage of food grains. FWIW.

 

[Show-me]

Breaking news: One ethanol plant in Missouri scrapped due to land option expiring. One on indefinite hold and two in IL on indefinite hold.

 

[Show-me]

The White Elephant stumbles.

 

[Show-me]

This weeks WSJ had a breakdown of AG price and the high cost of fertilizer.

 

[luv2read]

This weeks WSJ had a breakdown of AG price and the high cost of fertilizer.

it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is saved by using it. Those fertilizer plants run on....fossil fuel! ERGO...they can't afford the fuel to produce the fertilizer to grow the corn to make the alternative fuel (to power the car that Jack built:laugh. ERGO...if they continue to produce it, the price of ethanol will be passed along...so where's the savings to the consumer? ZILCH.

Question...if ethanol is so much more economical...why don't they just power themselves with what they produce and quit using fossil fuels to power the fertilizer and ethanol plants?

 

[James48843]

it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is saved by using it.

Old wives tale-- produced by a report done by an oil industry lobbiest. At current production rate, it only takes about 50% of the energy to make ethanol (including everything) as it produces. Don't believe everything you read. Study hard and you'll see there are other studies out there, including government studies that say ethanol is a net benefit for fuel.

Question...if ethanol is so much more economical...why don't they just power themselves with what they produce and quit using fossil fuels to power the fertilizer and ethanol plants?

Exactly. When you do the study using ethanol powered farm equipment, the numbers are even better.

By the way- I am proud to say that I have now gone three weeks and 1200 miles purchasing only E85. I doubt I will ever purchase a full tank of straight gasoline again.

 

[luv2read]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv2read
it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is saved by using it.

Old wives tale-- produced by a report done by an oil industry lobbiest. At current production rate, it only takes about 50% of the energy to make ethanol (including everything) as it produces. Don't believe everything you read. Study hard and you'll see there are other studies out there, including government studies that say ethanol is a net benefit for fuel.

Originally Posted by luv2read
Question...if ethanol is so much more economical...why don't they just power themselves with what they produce and quit using fossil fuels to power the fertilizer and ethanol plants?

Exactly. When you do the study using ethanol powered farm equipment, the numbers are even better.

By the way- I am proud to say that I have now gone three weeks and 1200 miles purchasing only E85. I doubt I will ever purchase a full tank of straight gasoline again.

LOL! James, see! I present both sides of the argument!

 

[James48843]

Breaking news: One ethanol plant in Missouri scrapped due to land option expiring. One on indefinite hold and two in IL on indefinite hold.

Capacity to produce is still outpacing outlets. As of this week, we're at 1567 stations nationwide, compared to over 150,000 that sell straight gasoline. The majority of ethanol now being produced (99%) is being consumed as E10, not E85. Yet. http://e85prices.com/e10-ethanol.htm




Give it time. More stations converting (and there were a rash of them this month) will mean more places to buy it, and more competition. When the competition kicks in, and prices fall, there will be a lot more sold. There are a lot of cars out there now that can burn E85, and more being produced, so it's just a matter of the distribtion network catching up to production. Oil companies are fighting it, but more independant stations are carrying it every day.

Here is a graph of production through 2007; We're currently at 8.2 billion gallons of ethanol, and growing rapidly:

View attachment 3950

Today we're using just 100 million gallons of that 8.2 billion gallons as E85, but only because oil companies, who are fighting ethanol, are refusing to put in E85 pumps. When they do, we'll absorb a lot of that.

Last year, the average E85 station sold just 4,700 gallons a month. Its already double that this year.

 

[ou81200]

We currently have an ethanol plant being built in Hopewell Va. I'm not sure but it may be the first one on the east coast.

James I have to agree with you. Ethanol may not be a cure - all, but it is a start. I saw on the news today that we are finally using less gas.

 

[Show-me]

Or, ethanol producers will hook people like James and the run up the price the same as gasoline once they have a big enough customer base. They are in business too and once they get a big enough foot hold they will run the price up to maximize their profits. They will take a page out of big oils play book, their board members are no different than big oils. Meanwhile the price of everything that uses corn or corn sweetener will go up due to the increased demand on corn ethanol.

The oil companies that own the gas station will keep jacking with the price at the pump so that you don't save that much. Bragging rights about using ethanol won't mean jack.

Give me the black stuff!

 

[ou81200]

Or, ethanol producers will hook people like James and the run up the price the same as gasoline once they have a big enough customer base. They are in business too and once they get a big enough foot hold they will run the price up to maximize their profits. They will take a page out of big oils play book, their board members are no different than big oils. Meanwhile the price of everything that uses corn or corn sweetener will go up due to the increased demand on corn ethanol.

The oil companies that own the gas station will keep jacking with the price at the pump so that you don't save that much. Bragging rights about using ethanol won't mean jack.

Give me the black stuff!

It's true that prices may increase as you say, but E-85 vehicles still run with gas with the present 5% ethanol as an additive. Point is---alternative forms of energy are being explored and ethanol is a renewable energy unlike oil unless you want to wait a couple of million years for more to be produced.

IMO---Times are changing. We will have to get used to higher prices and curtail useless or excessive activities that involve using natural resources unless you can afford it. We used 3.3% less gas in March than a year ago. Certainly this must have an impact somewhere down the line. In the past it had been rumored that car manufacturing companies were in with the oil companies to not aggresive in doing research on vehicles with alternative form of energy. Now big SUV producing companies like Ford can't give their vehicles away.

Oil companies will be around for awhile and yes they will charge whatever price they want for gas, but it will be good to know that there may be an alternative way to get around town.

 

[luv2read]

In the past it had been rumored that car manufacturing companies were in with the oil companies to not aggresive in doing research on vehicles with alternative form of energy. Now big SUV producing companies like Ford can't give their vehicles away.

Not rumors, but facts - and they're available through FOIA. The oil lobby and auto lobby are hand-in-fist with Congress on this one...anything to delay alternative energy and maximize profits from current fossil fuel technologies. It takes time and money to retool, after all....and if you can get the government to go along with you, why bother? If Congress had only stuck to their guns 30 years ago - but no. As soon as the embargo was lifted, it was business as usual. Sigh.:nuts:

 

[James48843]

Spot price of automotive grade bulk ethanol futures contracts drops 4 to 9 cents this morning on the Chicago Board of Trade. Now hovering around $2.41 a gallon, fob Chicago in 29,000 gallon rail tank cars. You then have to pay to get it to your location.

View attachment 3964​

Here is the nationwide state-by-state prices of bulk ethanol, in "rack price", which is at the distributor (rail unloading location).


Fuel Ethanol Rack Prices
Daily State Averages,
provided by DTN
May 28 Today Yesterday Change

Alabama $3.3625 3.4055 -0.0430
Arkansas $2.7813 2.78130 .0000
Colorado $2.8419 2.84190 .0000
Florida $3.3475 3.3905 -0.0430
Georgia $3.1400 3.3267 -0.1867
Iowa $2.6575 2.65750 .0000
Illinois $2.6770 2.67420 .0028
Indiana $2.7580 2.7651 -0.0071
Kansas $2.7216 2.71820 .0034
Louisiana $3.3400 3.3830 -0.0430
Michigan $2.6500 2.6500 0.0000
Minnesota $2.6515 2.6512 0.0003
Missouri $2.8343 2.8311 0.0032
Montana $2.6235 2.6235 0.0000
North Dakota $2.5665 2.5661 0.0004
Nebraska $2.6937 2.6931 0.0006
North Carolina $3.2825 3.3125 -0.0300
Ohio $2.8400 2.8500 -0.0100
Oklahoma $2.7259 2.7259 0.0000
Oregon $2.6614 2.6914 -0.0300
South Carolina $3.2825 3.3125 -0.0300
South Dakota $2.5994 2.5994 0.0000
Washington $2.7720 2.7720 0.0000
Wisconsin $2.7075 2.7222 -0.0147
Wyoming $2.6301 2.6301 0.0000


USA Average 2.8459 2.8630 -0.0171