TSP Poker Club

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trading insults is definitely not helping move the conversation forward. I won't be discussing things further tonight. KO, thanks, I actually was mainly seeking clarity on the rankings of those registered but unable to play one or more games question, we'll save that for a different night, if you don't mind.

And I don't think stats are so critical that we have to have someone looking over KOs shoulder, personally. that is taking things far more seriously than I ever imagined. KO has been gracious to take on the task, requiring someone doublecheck him, unless he requests it, is a bridge too far for me. If anyone besides Q thinks we need a doublechecker, please speak up this week. If not, I'd rather it never be brought up again, unless by KO himself. My 2 cents on that one.
 
since when is poker supposed to protect weak players? poker is all about punishing weak players and eating their lunch. that is how players learn to eat.

anything else is not poker, it is touchy-feely safety net free stuff for the unproductive. the beauty of poker is that in the long run it rewards productivity.

now i am just confused. i better sit this one out.

userque said:
"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."



Suppose John is a new player and club member. He plays 13 games that season. The fewer "best games" that count, the better for johnny; because he was improving all season, and had fewer good games.

Suppose Jane is a pro player and new club member. She plays 13 games that season. The more "best games" that count, the better for Jane ; because she is a pro, and played well all season, and had many good games.

Counting more games per season hurts weaker players.



Suppose John is a new player and club member. He plays 13 games that season. He placed last several times. Allowing players to receive points for last place helped John.

Suppose Jane is a pro player and new club member. She plays 13 games that season. She never placed last. Allowing players to not receive points for last place helped Jane.

Giving zero points for last place hurts weaker players.



I have advocated for improvements that would make the game more attractive to new members and new players--and less beneficial to me personally. In all cases, the proposals received fierce (as you have seen) opposition from many of the better players, or their sidekicks.
Click to expand...
 
burrocrat said:
since when is poker supposed to protect weak players? poker is all about punishing weak players and eating their lunch. that is how players learn to eat.

anything else is not poker, it is touchy-feely safety net free stuff for the unproductive. the beauty of poker is that in the long run it rewards productivity.

now i am just confused. i better sit this one out.
Click to expand...

Know your place! :laugh::laugh:
 
For what it's worth, I'm the newbie poker guy in the group. First, I commend Q on his effort to try to make the club more available to new players. My wife is a MaJong expert and plays competitively and wins a lot. She is always telling me about how newbies are intimidated and lose interest because the old dragon queens know all the rules backwards and forwards and use them to eliminate the newer players, and how the game is all about competition and money. But she loves the competition and she is really good at the game and she wins and she is nice to everybody (newbie or oldie). While the competition aspect is a really fun part of the game, the social aspect is also important. I think that's what Q was trying to do, make the club more attractive for growth.

Second: For myself, I don't care if I get points or not, I just play for the fun of it and because I'm hoping to whoop some butt one of these days. I don't care about prizes. I personally don't think they are necessary. The prize is the good feeling you get from doing your best. However, I would support them if they help the club be more successful.

Third: I will say that I am glad to see us evolving but sad to see us fracturing. I know that finding common ground isn't always an easy thing to do, but we're doing something wrong if we lose valued members. I think we missed an opportunity to find middle ground here. Sorry about that but it bothers me.

FS
 
FogSailing said:
For what it's worth, I'm the newbie poker guy in the group. First, I commend Q on his effort to try to make the club more available to new players. My wife is a MaJong expert and plays competitively and wins a lot. She is always telling me about how newbies are intimidated and lose interest because the old dragon queens know all the rules backwards and forwards and use them to eliminate the newer players, and how the game is all about competition and money. But she loves the competition and she is really good at the game and she wins and she is nice to everybody (newbie or oldie). While the competition aspect is a really fun part of the game, the social aspect is also important. I think that's what Q was trying to do, make the club more attractive for growth.

Second: For myself, I don't care if I get points or not, I just play for the fun of it and because I'm hoping to whoop some butt one of these days. I don't care about prizes. I personally don't think they are necessary. The prize is the good feeling you get from doing your best. However, I would support them if they help the club be more successful.

Third: I will say that I am glad to see us evolving but sad to see us fracturing. I know that finding common ground isn't always an easy thing to do, but we're doing something wrong if we lose valued members. I think we missed an opportunity to find middle ground here. Sorry about that but it bothers me.

FS
Click to expand...

Rather than do like many and whisper this to you in a private message:

Thank you Sir! I admire the moxie you've shown by swimming against the tide of the extremely vocal and loud few. You are a bright light in a dark abyss. May their energy never possess your soul! Shine on Brother!


________________________
Ephesians 6:12 (KJV) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[and low places too. :) ]
 
k0nkuzh0n said:
This is from March 1st:


Here is the comparison of the two different scoring system. On the left, is with last place getting points. On the right is last place gets 0 points. As you can see, everyone gets the scalar (in this case 2) as 'participation' points.
Across the top (2-10): # of people in the tournament
Down the left (2-10): Place an individual finished
Table value: Points earned for each finishing place, for each size of a tournament.


[TABLE="width: 749"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.83[/TD]
[TD]3.46[/TD]
[TD]4.00[/TD]
[TD]4.47[/TD]
[TD]4.90[/TD]
[TD]5.29[/TD]
[TD]5.66[/TD]
[TD]6.00[/TD]
[TD]6.32[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[TD]1.46[/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.47[/TD]
[TD]2.90[/TD]
[TD]3.29[/TD]
[TD]3.66[/TD]
[TD]4.00[/TD]
[TD]4.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.45[/TD]
[TD]2.83[/TD]
[TD]3.16[/TD]
[TD]3.46[/TD]
[TD]3.74[/TD]
[TD]4.00[/TD]
[TD]4.24[/TD]
[TD]4.47[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.45[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[TD]1.16[/TD]
[TD]1.46[/TD]
[TD]1.74[/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.24[/TD]
[TD]2.47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.31[/TD]
[TD]2.58[/TD]
[TD]2.83[/TD]
[TD]3.06[/TD]
[TD]3.27[/TD]
[TD]3.46[/TD]
[TD]3.65[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.31[/TD]
[TD]0.58[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[TD]1.06[/TD]
[TD]1.27[/TD]
[TD]1.46[/TD]
[TD]1.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.24[/TD]
[TD]2.45[/TD]
[TD]2.65[/TD]
[TD]2.83[/TD]
[TD]3.00[/TD]
[TD]3.16[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.24[/TD]
[TD]0.45[/TD]
[TD]0.65[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[TD]1.00[/TD]
[TD]1.16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.19[/TD]
[TD]2.37[/TD]
[TD]2.53[/TD]
[TD]2.68[/TD]
[TD]2.83[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.19[/TD]
[TD]0.37[/TD]
[TD]0.53[/TD]
[TD]0.68[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.16[/TD]
[TD]2.31[/TD]
[TD]2.45[/TD]
[TD]2.58[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.16[/TD]
[TD]0.31[/TD]
[TD]0.45[/TD]
[TD]0.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.14[/TD]
[TD]2.27[/TD]
[TD]2.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.14[/TD]
[TD]0.27[/TD]
[TD]0.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.12[/TD]
[TD]2.24[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.12[/TD]
[TD]0.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD]2.11[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[TD]0.11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...


OK, then-what I see from this is that giving points for last place really doesn't make a difference in the end, in terms of a last-place player knowing whether they are improving or not by end of season. KO's stats already show how many games a person played, how many games they ended up in last place or somewhere higher, Cumulative points system shows when they placed somewhere higher than last through the season, as do average points.

Speaking for myself, I've been running in about 7th or close to last place most of the season so far, including fact that I have not even registered for a few of the early games, and ended up sitting out an entire game for which I had registered, because I didn't get back from a work daytrip out of town until after the game had ended. ranking has not given me any indications that I've improved. and that's ok, I is what I is, as someone else here often says.

Can I tell I've improved my game by now? yes. how much have I improved my game,-intuitively I sense I've improved a lot, regardless of the stats. I finished 3d one night, and it was not by default, it was by good play. and I instilled "healthy fear" in Q the last game, even tho I ended up 7th-that in itself speaks volumes for how much I've improved my game since I started.

KO doesn't want to mess up the scoring sheet he's been keeping. He's our voluntary scorekeeper. I think the fact that last place gets no points doesn't have to be a barrier to new players who want to learn to play and improve their game and simply have fun doing it.

If we were just starting out, and I'd understood things better when we first went with the current scoring system, I might have gone with Q's present suggestion. numbers are clearer than intuition for many, in terms of measuring improvement. The second season coming up, assuming we have a second season, I fully intend to end up higher in the rankings by end of season, even if other excellent players choose to join in. I wish Q was still planning to play, it was a pleasure going up against him directly this past game-first time all season that it was that direct.

In summary for all the newbies out there that might want to just come and have fun and along the way take the opportunity to learn and/or improve their game-come on out, you can have fun, and there are other ways to tell if you are improving your play, even if you end up dead last in nearly every game with no points, at least in your first season. And please, if there are other excellent players out there, come join us, topflight competition only gives weaker players something to aspire to and a reason to work on their game.

Thank you Tom for being our topgun poker club manager. on this as well as the forum. And thank you Q for taking care of the club the last number of games, and thank you burro for getting this whole thing up and off the ground in the first place.
 
to put it in financial terms, all i see between the two methods is inflation. what used to be free now costs 2.00, and what used to cost 4.00 now costs 6.00. so what, there is still a 4.00 difference all the same? nope.

what used to be free now costs 2.00, where did the money come from? from the community pool that's where. under the free money for losers system, the winner is not doing expeptionally well against ineffective competition, no, now the winner is only doing 3x as well. but everybody feels better because they got something, right? again, no. everybody got something but not because of their individual effort or production.

this is the difference between socialism and capitalism, by the way. and poker is not by any means a socialist construct, the whole theory and reason for 'winning' is capitalism at its core, and removing that incentive makes it more of a quilting club than a poker club. if i wanted to quilt i would buy needles and thread, instead i buy chips and a chair. to each their own.
 
Ya, in that form (the default, Pokerstars derived equation, pre me modding it), it completely pushes people with fewer games out of contention. Every game someone misses, they would be immediately 2 points behind. I wasn't being misleading when I called them 'participation points'.

Modifying the equation and updating the stats sheets is a piece of cake, no worries there.

Its the creation of the equation. I spent a decent amount of time evaluating different options, and came to the conclusion of what we are currently using.

If someone wants to re-walk that path, by all means! If anything that would help you understand my reasoning and you'll likely come to a similar conclusion I had.

There's more than one way to skin a cat!
 
k0nkuzh0n said:
Ya, in that form (the default, Pokerstars derived equation, pre me modding it), it completely pushes people with fewer games out of contention. Every game someone misses, they would be immediately 2 points behind. I wasn't being misleading when I called them 'participation points'.

Modifying the equation and updating the stats sheets is a piece of cake, no worries there.

Its the creation of the equation. I spent a decent amount of time evaluating different options, and came to the conclusion of what we are currently using.

If someone wants to re-walk that path, by all means! If anything that would help you understand my reasoning and you'll likely come to a similar conclusion I had.

There's more than one way to skin a cat!
Click to expand...

i would recommend you leave the cat alone, she gets mad when you try to skin her and that is not usually a winning proposition.
 
k0nkuzh0n said:
Ya, in that form (the default, Pokerstars derived equation, pre me modding it), it completely pushes people with fewer games out of contention. Every game someone misses, they would be immediately 2 points behind. I wasn't being misleading when I called them 'participation points'.

Modifying the equation and updating the stats sheets is a piece of cake, no worries there.

Its the creation of the equation. I spent a decent amount of time evaluating different options, and came to the conclusion of what we are currently using.

If someone wants to re-walk that path, by all means! If anything that would help you understand my reasoning and you'll likely come to a similar conclusion I had.

There's more than one way to skin a cat!
Click to expand...

:nono: :slap:
 
Q: I was going to show your comment to Shield Maiden but then I figured she's wait for the opportunity to use it against me....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

FS
 
that link is very helpful, Q, thanks. It cleared up some questions the membership has been asking on logistics.
 
Ready for tonight's tourny?

What's everyone's status for next Sunday... Memorial Day weekend? I know I probably can't make it.
 
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