Shutdown is here.

[voodoostation]

I'm having a difficult time deciding, what was my choice again?

• Socialist Dems: I pay more than I take to fund low-income subsidies, and the for profit corporations billing them.
• Corporatist Repubs: I pay higher prices while monopoly corporations get tax cuts, fewer rules, and weaker protections for me.

Thank you sir! May i have another?

 

[voodoostation]

Yes. Taxpayers pay subsidies because our United States society hasn’t figured out that universal health care like Medicare for all would end up costing HALF as much as what we spend today in the USA for substandard health care.

The USA now ranks either 48th or 51st world wide on longevity, depending on who compiled the records- and the fifty above us all have some form of universal heath care coverage, paid in some part by tax funds.
Source: https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

Could you imagine the VA being scaled up 35 times? And dumping government money into paying medical care looks exactly like dumping government money into higher education tuition. Single payer, universal healthcare is not the answer, unless you really like waiting months for x-rays, MRI's, surgeries, etc.

I also believe the longevity issue is a diet and lifestyle issue predominately. We are a rotund nation. Pump us full of pills and shots, but don't call us fat.

 

[tsptalk]

Healthcare is an issue, but if the gov't is going to remain shut until they agree on affordable healthcare for Americans and non-Americans, well, good luck.

Or, they could open up the government and then work on it, understanding that it could take weeks, months or years. I don't think there's a solution that will make everyone happy, but we could all be unhappy with the govt open.

 

[JTH]

I just want to add, this idea that a single-payer system always means long lines and no choice is a bit of a false narrative, it’s not universally true. In most countries with public healthcare systems, people who want faster access or extra services can buy supplemental insurance or private care. The base coverage gives everyone security, and those who want more can pay for more if they choose.

Since I've been here 10 years, I'll use Poland as an example. Everyone gets basic public health coverage through the National Health Fund (NFZ), which covers most essential care, doctor visits, hospital stays, surgeries, maternity. For routine needs and emergencies, it’s usually enough and costs you nothing for service. But if you want faster appointments, shorter wait times for specialists, or extras like private rooms or extra screenings, then you can buy supplemental private insurance or just pay out-of-pocket at private clinics like I do. These medical packages cost about often $30–$70 per month, and most middle income folks I know have them.

But there's a catch, to have a system like this, you’d have to fundamentally rebuild the way U.S. healthcare corporations and profit-driven insurance control the market. As long as hospitals and drug makers overcharge Medicare, it’s impossible to guarantee basic care for everyone while still allowing upgrades for those who want them.

The whole system would have to shift from maximizing profit to actually serving people’s health. At the moment, all of us are both indirectly and directly paying for Medicare and private insurance, and we pay about 4X more than the average country because of inflated charges across the whole system. And as for the famed U.S. healthcare that some people brag about, it’s really just the top 20% of high-tech care that 80% of us will never have access to anyway.

As an example, my daughter needs a new tooth implant, she could fly here, get it done, fly back and save over 1K in the process.

Location	Typical cost for a single tooth implant	Notes / range	Approx ratio (Poland vs U.S.)
U.S.	$3,000 to $5,800 (implant + abutment + crown) (AAID Implant)	More complex cases (bone grafting, sinus lift, specialty materials) can push costs higher (Dental Depot DFW)	—
Poland	~ $1,000 to $1,300 for a typical implant + crown in many clinics (Bookimed)	Some Polish clinics list the screw (implant post) itself from ~ PLN 1,800 (≈ USD ~450) and total implant procedure including surgery/implant/crown ~ PLN 4,000+ (~USD 1,000+) (Warsaw Dental Center) Clinic “GoDenta” lists implant root & surgery 2,400–2,800 PLN (≈ USD 570–670) and full implant including surgery + technician 4,400–6,500 PLN (~USD 1,050–1,550) (godenta.eu)	Poland is often ~ 25–35 % of U.S. cost, i.e. ~ 65–75 % less expensive

 

[Boghie]

My health insurance costs were declining till 2010 or so. Then, they started going up.

I do agree that our health insurance and medical system is abysmal. I was on a basketball tournament trip to Istanbul in 2004. I had to visit a doctor for Bronchitis. Obviously, I was not covered by a national system. Out of pocket was about $25 for the doctor visit with a very impressive doctor who seemed to have concerns about sliming me with anti-biotics. I would grab this chap as my doctor here in the states. He gave me a 'prescription' for an anti-biotic for an additional $5. I put prescription in air-quotes because it really was a recommendation - the anti-biotic in question (and, I think all of them) were over-the-counter. The anti-biotic cost something like $15. So, for general care almost anything is better than calling a doctors office for bronchitis, being told the next available appointment is in 2026, then being told to go to urgent care, and then having insurance pick it all up for a lot of money and not caring because I never really saw the bill and I don't care if my insurance over-pays. What a mess.

On the other side of the coin, lots of folks from Canada and Mexico cross the border for health care that is not routine. I know Mexicans and Mexican-Americans that play both sides.

 

[Viettim]

So the way the Affordable Care Act (ACA) stays affordable is through very large government (taxpayer funded) subsidies? Seems like they named it wrong. How about (TTA) Taxpayers Take it in the ...

My single medical insurance has gone up $1800 a year after “Affordable Care Act” so someone not paying into it can get it for free.

 

[Skooby]

I'm non-essential so I've been home since it started...save for one day when I was called in for 5 hours.

I don't know if this one last as long as the last one though.

 

[JTH]

The whole system would have to shift from maximizing profit to actually serving people’s health. At the moment, all of us are both indirectly and directly paying for Medicare and private insurance, and we pay about 4X more than the average country because of inflated charges across the whole system. And as for the famed U.S. healthcare that some people brag about, it’s really just the top 20% of high-tech care that 80% of us will never have access to anyway.

While I still think the US Healthcare system needs a complete overhaul, it still won't address an underlying issue we have. So I'd like to counter my argument with a comparison, of Poland Vs. US in terms of Social Assistance

Comparing Social Assistance Burdens: U.S. vs. Poland

In Poland, 3.4 % of the population received social assistance in 2023, fuzzy math $62/year averaged across entire population
In the U.S., 20–30 % of people take part in major welfare programs, fuzzy math $2,597/year averaged across entire population

If we hit “critical mass” where a third of the population depends on assistance, we’ll be unable to reduce both the dependency rate or the costs. But, If the U.S. overhauled healthcare to match European systems, per-person costs could fall $500-$1,000 per person. Bear in mind, a big chunk of those welfare costs (about 60%) in the U.S. are driven by medical bills; fix health care, and you cut welfare spending too.

 

[Boghie]

JTH, I want my 3/5ths of a year!!!



Just get the gubmint out of medical care excepting the indigent and the seriously disabled.

 

[JTH]

JTH, I want my 3/5ths of a year!!!

View attachment 70347

Just get the gubmint out of medical care excepting the indigent and the seriously disabled.

You're cheating, Polish women live longer, their men drink 37% more beer, and they had to deal with some “post-Wall” hangover from the commies. You can get that 3.5ths through lifestyle choices.

From the Worldometer list, about 21 countries rank above the U.S. and use systems similar to Poland’s social health insurance (SHI). They’re cheaper, cover more, and still allow private supplements, usually while paying less than in the U.S. Most importantly, kids are covered. If you can’t afford insurance, you delay having children, the very people who later fund the system. We need more births or more immigration. U.S. birth rates are below replacement, and fewer kids mean weaker future contributors eroding our purchasing power. It’s already happening.

 

[Boghie]

I kinda agree JTH. Our system sucks, but I don't know if a socialist system sucks less. I want the ability to change providers if I don't like my current provider. I, personally, think we should move to a more self-pay environment. I don't know how though. In the end, math will win. It always does.

Your choice of Poland is at least fair. They are spending money on things other than welfare and socialized medicine. They do have the bear looking over the border fence and they do fund a viable military - unlike the big Euros on the continent.