MrJohnRoss' Account Talk

The Autotracker has its limitations because of the complicated math needed. I think Tom went with % because it is the easiest and likely the most fair, but I've always been curious what the equation is. Ever wonder why, if for example, you are at -7% and you are 100% in the C and it goes up 0.42% and when you check the Tracker that night you're sitting at -6.65%? For some reason you didn't improve by the entire 0.42%. This happens all the time in the Tracker, and I've noticed that my gains and losses are more similar to the actual fund gain or loss when I'm closer to the zero line. That's because of the complicated math probably used in the Tracker's equation, but I and wondering in print here.

If Tom started us each on Jan 1 at $1000 and applied it to whatever funds we were in and used real share prices and their daily $/share changes, I'm sure his work load would go through the roof. But, you'd also see that regardless of share price, % gain is the one and only performance element you should be concerned about. Don't get me wrong, I am very pleased with this site and the Autotracker.

I always wonder the same thing. If the S fund was up 0.50% why my tracker % didn't go up that percentage. Actually the tracker %'s and my real account %'s almost match on a daily basis's. Once in awhile we are off by 0.01% or so. The only time we are way off is the day that my contribution is deposited into my account. We all start with $100,000.00 at the beginning of the year and it is a very complicated program. But it keeps all of us on a level playing field as long as we are honest on how much we have in each Fund.
 
So this explains why the C fund earned over 2% last year and the actual S&P 500 finished down 0.04 pts on the year. Thanks!

Also, in talks with co-workers, it seems like maybe the Autotracker does use a standard money value attached to share prices. If this is the case then it was a huge endeaver indeed that Tom undertook to program the Autotracker.
 
Thanks, nasa, that seems right. One thing's for sure...if you are well under zero it takes a big effort to get your head back above water. The same is true in real life, except that there's no new $100,000 on New Years Day.
 
I have no idea how the Auto Tracker figures things, I don't use it. My account value and the % gains/losses of my individual investment vehicles is what matters.

I could have more shares of the G fund, far more than any of the equities fund, but at 0.16% for the year to date...I'm not impressed.
 
Share volume vs. Share price. Argh.
Anyway you slice it if you new the ceiling and new the bottom both would increase.
The longer your at it the more you track price. Early on it (for me anyway) it was share volume increase which equated to Big Balance.
 
Ever wonder why, if for example, you are at -7% and you are 100% in the C and it goes up 0.42% and when you check the Tracker that night you're sitting at -6.65%? For some reason you didn't improve by the entire 0.42%.
The reason it doesn't come out that way is because of the compounding. You can't add and subtract returns from each other to get a total.

Some extreme examples to show what I mean:

It you were up 100% and then lost 100%, you are down 100% (lost it all), not at 0%.

If you were down 50% going into a day that gave you a 100% gain, you wouldn't be up 50% (-50% + 100%), you would be at 0% (lost half, then doubled that).

If you are up 50%, and then gain 50% that day, you are not up 100%. You're up 125%. Here's the math...

Start w/ $1000.
Up 50% = $1500.
Gain another 50% = + $750.
New total = $2250.
That's + $1250 or +125% of original $1000)


The actual formula I use for spreadsheets, which come up with the same numbers as the autotracker, is:

return =(100*(1+starting return) * (1+ new day's return)-100)/100

I hope that makes sense, and helps. Rest assured that it is correct. The TSP.gov website posts the same gains and losses for it's funds as we figure on the AutoTracker.
 
Apparently, Mr. $VIX needs to get below 16 before we reach our market top. Notice the market tops in the chart, and how Mr. $VIX was below 16 each time.

Coincidence???

$vix.jpg
 
Yes, thank you Tom, compounding happens! Daily in TSP accounts because the shares are settle each evening. Which is why a fund, say the S fund, that recently has rather consistently logs higher percentage gains day after day, especially on a higher share price is a better bet. Of course the inverse is true on the way down.

Compounded gains are seen in the multi-day returns (i.e. weekly, monthly, yearly). The S fund was, any way you slice it, much better for your portfolio over the past 12 months.

Back to the previous conversation:
See the following current year returns:12.3% for the S vs 7.58% for the C. Meaning that investing 100k exactly one year ago in the C fund would net you $7,580 gains and 100k in the S fund would net you $12,300 gains...REGARDLESS of how many shares comprise the initial $100k value. Two $50,000 shares or 10,000 $10 shares...it doesn't matter. The annual gains for a $100k investment would be the same.

Those percentages are the same regardless of whether you had 10k, 100k or 1mil in your account. Of course, the larger account would have "made more money"


Now, back to square 1:
If you had 100k to invest and you chose the C fund because it was cheaper and you could acquire MORE shares for you initial 100K investment you would get more profit IF the C and S both made the same gains in real $$s (i.e. each made $0.20/day for 5, 10, 20, 50 etc. etc. etc. days). Would be nice eh! BUT that would be clearly evident in the % gains as the "cheaper" C shares having a greater % gain because that $0.20/day would be a greater proportion of the previous days share price.


The reason it doesn't come out that way is because of the compounding. You can't add and subtract returns from each other to get a total.

Some extreme examples to show what I mean:

It you were up 100% and then lost 100%, you are down 100% (lost it all), not at 0%.

If you were down 50% going into a day that gave you a 100% gain, you wouldn't be up 50% (-50% + 100%), you would be at 0% (lost half, then doubled that).

If you are up 50%, and then gain 50% that day, you are not up 100%. You're up 125%. Here's the math...

Start w/ $1000.
Up 50% = $1500.
Gain another 50% = + $750.
New total = $2250.
That's + $1250 or +125% of original $1000)


The actual formula I use for spreadsheets, which come up with the same numbers as the autotracker, is:

return =(100*(1+starting return) * (1+ new day's return)-100)/100

I hope that makes sense, and helps. Rest assured that it is correct. The TSP.gov website posts the same gains and losses for it's funds as we figure on the AutoTracker.
 
Been meaning to comment on this. The Down Jones Board uses divisors and price weightings to somewhat account for the differing values, splits etc. in the stocks that comprise the DJIA. I don't know how how Bespoke computed their AAPL DJIA (probably just subtracted CSCO and added AAPL share prices since, as stated, these guys are noteworthy for shortcutting). It's quite possible that the DJ board would have accounted for the overweight value of AAPL had they actually included that stock. Also, if you follow AAPL stock you know that AAPL kind of goes it's own way and there are a multitude of reasons that it's probably a poor choice for the very general DJ.

Interesting story on NPR this morning about the history of the DJIA and how old/weird it is to use it as a gauge of market "health". The sentiment came from the Director of the Dow Jones Indexes.

What Do The Dow's Daily Swings Mean? Not Much. : Planet Money : NPR

Back in June 2009, the Dow got rid of GM and put in CSCO. Where would the Dow be if AAPL had been added to the index instead?

Current Dow in blue.

Woulda coulda shoulda in red.

View attachment 17532

Chart courtesy Bespoke.
 
When the blind side hits many S funders will feel their sphincters tighten - will they run or hold the line. It'll be fun to watch for sure.
 
Strange statement for someone who doesn't suffer from myopic loss aversion. Indeed S has a slightly higher risk factor. For the buy and holder who expects that C will one day outperform S, accumulating shares of C at "discount" prices will pay off...if the C fund starts outperforming the S. For those of us who do the IFT shuffle...driving in whatever lane is moving the fastest makes the most sense...just be ready to react when the traffic slows down.
 
When the blind side hits many S funders will feel their sphincters tighten - will they run or hold the line. It'll be fun to watch for sure.

So even though the S fund has outperformed the C fund for the last 2 years you are saying the place to be is the C fund?
 
Smart money vs dumb money. It's just a matter of time before we get our correction, and I don't think we'll have to wait too long.

Agreed, and I'm not sure my system reacts quick enough to get me out. Also, there does not seem to be a whole lot of data to push the markets up - if Greece's good news doesn't, I'm not sure what would at this point. So I'm in a pickle over whether to bail or not. I'll at least wait and see what tomorrow will bring.
 
driving in whatever lane is moving the fastest makes the most sense.

Not always. When I'm in my F250 SD Diesel pulling 9K Travel Trailer I do not venture into the fast lane to often. I do however zip past the hybrids hauling nothing but passengers:laugh:
 
Strange statement for someone who doesn't suffer from myopic loss aversion. Indeed S has a slightly higher risk factor. For the buy and holder who expects that C will one day outperform S, accumulating shares of C at "discount" prices will pay off...if the C fund starts outperforming the S. For those of us who do the IFT shuffle...driving in whatever lane is moving the fastest makes the most sense...just be ready to react when the traffic slows down.

Well said Mapper. Until C or I clearly begins to outperform S, I will stay 100% S. And of course, if we get a sell signal, G will outperform them all, since they'll all be going backwards!

If you want to increase your TSP to the maximum, you should always want to ride in the fastest car, and quit worrying about how many shares you have.
 
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