Government Motors

[RealMoneyIssues]

Good Morning Sir! Welcome to Reality.
Sometime look up the story of how building the transcontinental railroad was funded or how the vast majority of our military technology gets developed (I could go on, and on, and on) and then get back to me about how this is the "way of the future".

Once again, y'all compare apples to oranges to promote your agenda. I said my peace, and it is a sad state of affairs when you have to give a tax credit to consumers to purchase something that would probably not be bought otherwise (cash for clunkers comes to mind too).

Have a great day with your bloated government. At some point, we too, will be looking for a bailout; I hope China's GDP has grown enough by then so that there is someone with the money to provide the bailout. Wow, those austerity measures imposed here in the good 'ole USA are going to be painful... Are you prepared? Will the USD be worth anything by then?

Have a great day!

 

[Minnow]

Oh sure.

Well if that were the case we'd be sitting under candle light discussing horses and buggies

And I must point out that Thomas Edison funded Menlo Park through his own and other private monies - a big reason we're not using candlelight, correct?. And Henry Ford did not use government money for his automobile factory -- a big reason the horse and buggy went away, no? History is important, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Minnow]

Here you go Mapper:

a good site: www.energyfromthorium.com

 

[Mapper]

Sorry my friend, grounding this discussion in historically verifiable reality does not constitute an agenda or a promotion of bloated government. If you want to discuss the philosophy of free-market capitalism then go ahead and do so...but that isn't the crux of this discussion

My point is that everyday average Americans have frequently pooled their resources together and done amazing things as team. I wish GM success. In the face tremendous opposition they went out on a limb to bring a series hybrid vehicle to market. Yep, they needed some help and our government saw a case to invest in the company. Maybe that was a mistake but I like their new cars, there are plenty I'd consider buying.

 

[Mapper]

Yes Minnow, my comments involved plenty of hyperbole. More specifically I was thinking of rural electrification (TVA, BPA etc) and the road/interstate network. The ventures of Goodyear and his involvement with government to drive a change from street cars to buses is another well known example. I never said gov't was the end all be all, despite assumptions to the contrary. I'd say there has been a long history of gov't private industry cooperation in the large scale implementation of promising new ideas.

 

[Minnow]

Sorry my friend, grounding this discussion in historically verifiable reality (see my post below #229)does not constitute an agenda or a promotion of bloated government. If you want to discuss the philosophy of free-market capitalism then go ahead and do so...but that isn't the crux of this discussion (and I would counter that this is exactly what this discussion is about -- your mileage may vary).

My point is that everyday average Americans have frequently pooled their resources together and done amazing things as team. (in the private realm -- see below regarding Edison and Ford ... they did not do it alone). I wish GM success. (I do not wish ill will on any GM worker). In the face tremendous opposition they went out on a limb to bring a series hybrid vehicle to market. (I would say serious would mean cost-effective. Again your mileage may vary.) Yep, they needed some help and our government saw a case to invest in the company. Maybe that was a mistake (Yes it was no maybes about it) but I like their new cars, there are plenty I'd consider buying. (I only like the Corvette, Camaro and some of the Buick Sedans... That is only an opinion -- not enough to literally rob the american taxpayer through the tax incentives.)

I think RMI is done, so the referee said I was tagged in.

 

[Minnow]

Yes Minnow, my comments involved plenty of hyperbole. Big difference between "plenty of hyperbole" and your retort stating it was historically verifiable reality. Wouldn't you agree? More specifically I was thinking of rural electrification (TVA, BPA etc) and the road/interstate network. The ventures of Goodyear and his involvement with government to drive a change from street cars to buses is another well known example. Excellent examples that tend to benefit the public as a whole rather that government-chosen beneficiaries. I never said gov't was the end all be all, despite assumptions to the contrary. I'd say there has been a long history of gov't private industry cooperation in the large scale implementation of promising new ideas. Which is why Thorium holds so much promise. Almost a Manhattan project without the end goal being nuclear annihilation of an enemy.

Also cudos to you for keeping this a logical discussion without the political buzzwords.

 

[Mapper]

Alright. This discussion is about the fact that the Government bailed out GM, no?

So, people may WISH for free market capitalism but rarely does it exist. Our government provides services from pooled resources, a.k.a. taxes and this is not a new thing. Certainly there is, and always has been, disagreement on where to invest those resources...hence why companies use lobbyists. Those lobbyists use money to exert undue influence over democratically elected lawmakers. An imperfect system...I'd say so! We may not like it but it's the hand were dealt.

The Volt is a Series Hybrid, an electric vehicle with a range extending generator. I did not say serious hybrid, although I think it a serious technological step into an expanding market; every automaker is now bringing electric and hybrid vehicles to market...for GM sit this one out would be utter folly. To be honest when the Prius first came out many of the detractors said it would fail because a Series Hybrid was the way to go...largely because it was tested successfully in Series Hybrid Diesel locomotives.

I also really like many of the new Buicks and think Corvettes have become much more appealing in recent years. Not a big Camaro fan but I can certainly see the draw

 

[Mapper]

As to the "plenty of hyperbole" comment. I chose examples that benefited tremendously from government supported industries. As stated subsequently, there were private/government partnerships wherein the gov't absorbs the majority of the capital risk involved in a particular venture.

I must state here that I give credit to Ford who, pre-recession, saw the writing on the wall OR got just plain lucky, when it came to being a more nimble, adept, performer and restructuring it's debt early. Ford looked ahead and developed smaller, fuel-efficient platforms and hybrid drivetrains and stayed ahead of the curve. GM was a larger entity and lacked such foresight.

As a proponent of smaller fuel efficient cars I was singing the praises of Ford long ago, roughly 2006, when it liquidated significant real property to finance development of smaller efficient platforms. Those decisions, at the time, were the ire of many who saw the idea of turbocharged V6 truck, a mid-sized hybrid sedan, a mid-sized sedan w/ a good, efficient 4cyl engine or small commercial van as absolute foolishness. It's kind of funny how many people overlook exactly what was involved in that timely, smart business decision. If only GM and Chrysler had been so timely...we might have had a vibrant auto industry w/out gov't intervention. Ironically it was inability to look ahead and adapt to the changing market that put those companies at a disadvantage...and somehow we continue to decry the industry's efforts to adapt.

 

[paydirt]

Well, your first quote came from Star Trek... frankly I don't want my tax dollars going where no man has gone before.

The second is from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest while Randle P. McMurphy was trying convince mental patients to change an insane mental ward policy/schedule.

So your quotes, while cute and most certainly clever, are more apropos to an individual defending my position.

By the way, if I haven't welcomed you to the message board, then "Welcome." And I sincerely respect the way you state your positions. Cudos to you.

Thanks for the welcome, Minnow; and for the cudos. I don't want to take too much credit for my comment. After all, you pitched it; all I did was swing.

 

[Mapper]

At some point, we too, will be looking for a bailout; I hope China's GDP has grown enough by then so that there is someone with the money to provide the bailout.

Been there a long time already...Bonds. Interestingly enough other countries are so impressed with the relative stability of the good ole USA that they now give us their money without expecting ANY real return. It's an investment in stability rather than for profit. Those countries pursuing extreme austerity can NOT offer that kind of stability so they must pay higher interest rates in return for their higher risk.

Speaking of comparing apples and oranges. The US has autonomy with respect to it's currency. Countries of the European Union do not. The failures of the EU monetary system stem from a having a monetary union w/out a strong political union. IF Greece could devalue it's currency to enhance it's competitiveness the austerity would not be needed...instead, because of the Euro, Greece is limited to deflation and imposed austerity OR default and return to it's own currency, which would obviously be devalued. That is how they must "restart" their internal economy.

The US is a different story, and other countries are more than happy to give us money...money which we could be investing in our future and using to "restart" our own economy. Macro economics is a different animal from household budgets. If we wait to invest then yes, we may to resort to austerity...especially if the dynamic changes and other countries want more in return for their investments...via higher interest rates, but that's currently a choice not an imposition.

 

[James48843]

.... Ironically it was inability to look ahead and adapt to the changing market that put those companies at a disadvantage...and somehow we continue to decry the industry's efforts to adapt.

Some folks like "Change", and some folks don't like "Change". They'd rather still be riding horses. That seems to be just how it is.

Anyway- back to the subject- those are some pretty nice new cars being cranked out by GM these days.

Love that Camero.

 

[RealMoneyIssues]

Been there a long time already...Bonds. Interestingly enough other countries are so impressed with the relative stability of the good ole USA that they now give us their money without expecting ANY real return. It's an investment in stability rather than for profit. Those countries pursuing extreme austerity can NOT offer that kind of stability so they must pay higher interest rates in return for their higher risk.

Speaking of comparing apples and oranges. The US has autonomy with respect to it's currency. Countries of the European Union do not. The failures of the EU monetary system stem from a having a monetary union w/out a strong political union. IF Greece could devalue it's currency to enhance it's competitiveness the austerity would not be needed...instead, because of the Euro, Greece is limited to deflation and imposed austerity OR default and return to it's own currency, which would obviously be devalued. That is how they must "restart" their internal economy.

The US is a different story, and other countries are more than happy to give us money...money which we could be investing in our future and using to "restart" our own economy. Macro economics is a different animal from household budgets. If we wait to invest then yes, we may to resort to austerity...especially if the dynamic changes and other countries want more in return for their investments...via higher interest rates, but that's currently a choice not an imposition.

Until they are not... What happens when we prove their faith unfounded?

Not too much of that around anymore...from Oil Co tax subsidies, Wall St Investors being able to write off losses, farm subsidies Renter lanlord tax breaks, etc...

All of which should be stopped... Now that everyone knows that the government will bail them out, they will take stupid chances and we, the taxpayer, will be doing the paying...

 

[Minnow]

Some folks like "Change", and some folks don't like "Change". They'd rather still be riding horses. That seems to be just how it is.

Anyway- back to the subject- those are some pretty nice new cars being cranked out by GM these days.

Love that Camero.

Yeah, I'd like banks and big business to stand on their own for a change. I'd like workers and potential workers to stop expecting a handout for a change. I'd like government to stay out of my wallet for a change. I'd like some forward thinking people to get elected to office and change the idiotic energy policy this country has for a change.

I'm obviously not who you were addressing because, I love progress. I dig my air conditioning. I love being able to travel anywhere in the world on a whim (or if I was rich I could). I appreciate having all the modern conveniences that I do. I respect the old ways of doing things but I can also respect a need to move forward in an intelligent way and in case you were wondering I've seen very little in that regard coming down the pike lately.

And for the sake of all that's holy Jim, you're from Michigan... it's spelled Camaro and only the Transformers movie maker thinks that racing yellow looks cool. That bada$$ car needs to be red, black or white with wide orange racing stripes. Jiminy Christmas!!!!

 

[RealMoneyIssues]

Some folks like "Change", and some folks don't like "Change". They'd rather still be riding horses. That seems to be just how it is.

Anyway- back to the subject- those are some pretty nice new cars being cranked out by GM these days.

Love that Camero.

Yeah, I'd like banks and big business to stand on their own for a change. I'd like workers and potential workers to stop expecting a handout for a change. I'd like government to stay out of my wallet for a change. I'd like some forward thinking people to get elected to office and change the idiotic energy policy this country has for a change.

I'm obviously not who you were addressing because, I love progress. I dig my air conditioning. I love being able to travel anywhere in the world on a whim (or if I was rich I could). I appreciate having all the modern conveniences that I do. I respect the old ways of doing things but I can also respect a need to move forward in an intelligent way and in case you were wondering I've seen very little in that regard coming down the pike lately.

And for the sake of all that's holy Jim, you're from Michigan... it's spelled Camaro and only the Transformers movie maker thinks that racing yellow looks cool. That bada$$ car needs to be red, black or white with wide orange racing stripes. Jiminy Christmas!!!!

Now THAT is change I can believe in...

 

[Viva_La_Migra]

Yeah, I'd like banks and big business to stand on their own for a change. I'd like workers and potential workers to stop expecting a handout for a change. I'd like government to stay out of my wallet for a change. I'd like some forward thinking people to get elected to office and change the idiotic energy policy this country has for a change.

I'm obviously not who you were addressing because, I love progress. I dig my air conditioning. I love being able to travel anywhere in the world on a whim (or if I was rich I could). I appreciate having all the modern conveniences that I do. I respect the old ways of doing things but I can also respect a need to move forward in an intelligent way and in case you were wondering I've seen very little in that regard coming down the pike lately.

And for the sake of all that's holy Jim, you're from Michigan... it's spelled Camaro and only the Transformers movie maker thinks that racing yellow looks cool. That bada$$ car needs to be red, black or white with wide orange racing stripes. Jiminy Christmas!!!!

Actually, I like Bumblebee! Reminds me of my first car: 1972 Chevy Nova, yellow, with a black vinyl top. Wish I had that car now! I'm sure it's worth more than the $1500 I paid for it in 1986.

 

[Minnow]

Actually, I like Bumblebee! Reminds me of my first car: 1972 Chevy Nova, yellow, with a black vinyl top. Wish I had that car now! I'm sure it's worth more than the $1500 I paid for it in 1986.

Sweet... big block? either way definitely more than $1500... did you sport it with a denim jacket and a mullet? (that's how I looked cool in my first car, too). Those were the days.

 

[Mapper]

Honestly I'm rather impressed with many of the Big 3s new models. Had an opportunity to rent and put almost 1000 miles on a Chrysler Town & Country, not something I was overtly excited about. I have to tell you though, that was one nice mini-van, it hauled 5 adults and a load of ski gear in very comfortable style. The, revamped for 2012, Charger, Durango and Grand Cherokee are all looking pretty sweet too

Back to GM.
Speaking of a return to glory. Cadillac is putting out some really nice models and concepts. Having a brand people aspire to is important...the previous crop of Cadillacs were nice enough but hardly inspirational. I think GM is doing an excellent job of appropriately filling different market niches with it's different brands and models. As boring as the everyday mid-size family car niche is, I must say I'm looking forward to what Chevy brings out to update the Malibu. While the current model was a massive leap forward for Chevy it's no longer an example of what GM is capable. Take the new Buick Regal, for example, that's an extremely nice mid-sized sedan. I bet the Malibu replacement becomes a solid competitor. I haven't driven a Cruze yet, but the ones I see on the road have a look of quality and attention to detail that was not remotely present in the Cavaliers or the Cobalt.

Camaro seems to be selling reasonably well. I see a surprising number of them on the road.

Edit: And in a nod to a previous era. You just have to respect the Chevy crate motors, drop them in just about anything for extremely reliable performance.

 

[Viva_La_Migra]

Sweet... big block? either way definitely more than $1500... did you sport it with a denim jacket and a mullet? (that's how I looked cool in my first car, too). Those were the days.

Letterman jacket and a white boy afro (I had REALLY curly hair back then). One of these days I'm going to run the license plate and try to buy it back, if it's not a pile of scrap in some junk yard.

 

[tsptalk]

The, revamped for 2012, Charger, Durango and Grand Cherokee are all looking pretty sweet too

The new Challenger is pretty hot too. I say it's about time they realized us old guys liked the look of the old cars, rather than making every vehicle look the same the way they do now.