Christianity vs Islam

[alevin]

For some reason, people treat Paul's words as God's words - even when they differ from our Lord Jesus and the way Jesus acted. I think we've taken it too far by equating Paul's words with God's words. Paul himself even says in a few instances that he is speaking, not the Holy Spirit.

You are not the first to question Paul's role and writings, and you probably won't be the last, Fab. all the more reason to continue studying the Bible as a whole with a teachable mindset. Have you considered what Peter had to say on the subject? Peter had an attitude adjustment curve about Paul's place too if you trace the development of their relationship through the NT.

Peter eventually had this to say..."our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him...His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, that ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3: 15-16). Peter ultimately acknowledged Paul's legitimacy and his writings as authoritative for believers. That's how they ended up in the NT. As far as the "people" he was referring to-read the rest of the letter for context, as in all other study of scripture, historical context matters as Rod said.

If the word destruction bothers you, consider people who smoke, even after it starts affecting their health, despite all the written warnings, until their disregard and refusal to believe the truth about the dangers of tobacco use ends up destroying them. Nobody else did it to them.

Headed out of town for a couple days, will be away from keyboard. Much to do yet before heading out, so signing off for now. Peace, brother.

 

[fabijo]

Amen, alevin. And that's what I was trying to say earlier about some differences between Paul and Jesus. For some reason, people treat Paul's words as God's words - even when they differ from our Lord Jesus and the way Jesus acted. Paul was a brother in the Lord, but I think we've taken it too far by equating Paul's words with God's words. Paul himself even says in a few instances that he is speaking, not the Holy Spirit.

 

[alevin]

I've heard that phrase many times - Be in the world, not of the world - but it's not in the Bible. The closest I found it is where Jesus is praying for His disciples.

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. - John 17:15-16

Absolutely correct, Fab. My quote is a paraphrase used for application to daily living, not exact quote.

Who did Jesus spend time with? kids (no social standing in their society) and sinners like tax collectors (some of the most despised people in their society at the time), lepers and other "unclean" people, non-monogomous women, people who doubted or were confused but who were trying to understand or willing to listen at least, non-Jews (Roman officer), heretics (Samaritans), other people shunned by Jewish society at the time. In fact the rule-following religious people chastized and judged him for spending time with all the "wrong" people.

He spent time with the "wrong" people and their lives were transformed by spending time with Him, he didn't avoid them or judge them like everyone else did, his attitude towards them moved them to want to be different.

So if Jesus asked God the Father not to rescue his followers out of the physical world filled with trials and tribulations, enemies and unlikeable people like Romans and tax collectors etc. (ie to Heaven the perfect place), where does that leave us? Here in the everyday world for a purpose, Gods purpose, without living by the world's values and attitudes. Thats my understanding and my point.

 

[fabijo]

I've heard that phrase many times - Be in the world, not of the world - but it's not in the Bible. The closest I found it is where Jesus is praying for His disciples.

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. - John 17:15-16

 

[alevin]

I will point out some Scripture...

Christians must disassociate themselves with non believers. Yes, believers are to proclaim the Gospel. But believers are not to maintain close relationships with anyone who is a non believer.

Bottom line is that even in light of "The Golden Rule", the Bible clearly teaches intolerance for the non believer.

Peace

Rod, the Bible says many things. And you were very much on-track the other day when you emphasized the need to consider context and history associated with the verses referenced. A reminder here,

"And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband..." I Corinthians 7:13-14a.

,

however....if the spouse doesn't want to stick around.... I Corinthians 7:15 says, "But if the unbelieving depart, let him [her] depart."

So, there is a time and place for everything, including relationships to the extent that genuine relationships are possible. It's tough to have really close relationship with someone when something so important is not shared, which is why it's a whole lot easier to marry someone who shares that faith fromthe getgo. That's also why we are called to love people and interact with them in our daily lives, so they can see Christ in us and be drawn into relationship with Him-on God's timetable, not ours.

"Be in the world, not of the world"-means don't get sucked into values and attitudes of the world around us that would be displeasing to God who loves all people despite themselves, it doesn't mean crawl into a hole and only associate with other believers. Paul told Timothy not to neglect gathering together with other believers, which tells me it's something we need to do, it doesn't mean its the only thing we're supposed to do.

He doesn't want groundhog followers, but there is recognition that we are human and can be unduly influenced by values and attitudes that dishonor God if we do not balance how we spend time and who we spend it with and why. that balance in expenditure of life energy goes for books and TV and radio and video games etc. too, in my way of thinking. Peace.

 

[fabijo]

Rod - thanks for the verses. However, there are people who dispute Paul's apostleship status. Jesus never mentions him. The only testimony about Paul's encounter with Jesus is from Paul himself. Paul's own testimony about conversion happened without any believers around. Jesus did speak with Peter and even said that upon Peter, the church shall be built. But for some reason, Paul's letters make up most of the New Testament. Paul even gives his testimony differently to different people (In one account, he says Jesus told him that he'd go to the Gentiles while he was on the road to Damascus. In another account, he says that Jesus didn't tell him that until 3 years later, when he was praying). Sure, he preached the gospel, but he also said some things that were contrary to the way Jesus taught and acted.

 

[Buster]

Are you now going to strictly define your definition of "non believer"?

Peace

Yes..in regards to the KJV Bible..the non believe is one that worships false gods and those that try to corrupt and sway those that believe in the one Almighty God, those messengers of Satan should be put to death...

But My point was that Islamic Koran commands their kind to KILL, SLAY those that are NON Believers in their BOOK..Koran..Christians and Muslims do share the same GOD, so that ain't the issue, The Bible is about believing in false deities and corrupting God's believers in him. Muslims, they believe NON believers in their religion should be killed..period..

Anyways, that's the way I see it and I will stone you if you try to change my mind..

 

[Rod]

Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers,

At least you did not declare that the Bible does not speak of such things, but only said you did not see anything. That said, I will point out some Scripture...

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deut 13:6-11

Within this context, God does not command the killing of a non believer for the sake of being a non believer, but one who tries to lead astray a believer. Even if the non-believer was family, they were to be killed.

If there be found among you...man or woman...(that)hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven...Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Deut 17:1-5

Remember, God IS A JEALOUS GOD.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus- Mark 16:16

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Jesus- Mat 10:14-15

And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Peter- Acts 3:23

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ...

Romans 16:17,18

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Cor 6:14-18

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2 John 9-11

Christians must disassociate themselves with non believers. Yes, believers are to proclaim the Gospel. But believers are not to maintain close relationships with anyone who is a non believer.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 1:5

It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:31

This is but a sampling.

Note that I used the KJV since that is the version you referenced.

Bottom line is that even in light of "The Golden Rule", the Bible clearly teaches intolerance for the non believer.

Are you now going to strictly define your definition of "non believer"?

Peace

 

[alevin]

Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers, nor does it specifically name any one religion to stay away from... I know it won't mention the Islamic faith, as it wasn't invented yet while the Bible was being written..

But I think Mohammad did too much Hashish to tell you the truth..

Sorry Buster, don't believe he has ever been connected with the substance. You're probably thinking of the Hashashin (the Assassins), who were a branch of the Shia, which split from the Sunni's after Mohammed died. The Shia and Sunni disagreed on who should follow Mohammed as leader after he died. The Hashashin disappeared as a political/religious sect in the late 13th century due to religious/political strife with neighbors and Mongol invaders, and may have had nothing to do with hashish, according to Wiki article on Hashashin.

Fab, as far as Koran goes, it was written down after Mohammed died, and is a collection of his spoken edicts and revelations/visions he talked about during his life. His spoken communications got more legalistic and prescriptive as time went on after he started building a monotheistic empire and society by conquering all the neighboring pagan people who worshiped many gods. He was known to have "fits" or "spells" even before he started having experiences he thought were angel Gabriel talking to him. May have been epilepsy, schizophrenia, something else entirely.

Ordinary Muslims are not encouraged to study the Koran and think about what it says in the same sense we think of Bible study. They are encouraged to memorize so they can "recite" passages.

 

[Buster]

It's crazy. Someone gave me this Koran years ago, but since this thread started, I decided to flip through it to see what it says. It's pretty quick and easy to find references to Jews and Christians; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc... I still don't quite get what the Koran is supposed to be. I don't know if it is supposed to be considered the Word of Allah, or the words of Mohammad, speaking what he thinks of Allah.

Isn't it funny though..In the Bible (King James) I see nothing referencing hating, disliking or killing others that are non believers, nor does it specifically name any one religion to stay away from... I know it won't mention the Islamic faith, as it wasn't invented yet while the Bible was being written..

But I think Mohammad did too much Hashish to tell you the truth..

Some American Indians performed religious ceremonies and incantations while spiritually engaged with peyote buttons..(Read http://peyote.com/carlos-castaneda/index.html)

 

[fabijo]

Pretty much says it all don't it..?

It's crazy. Someone gave me this Koran years ago, but since this thread started, I decided to flip through it to see what it says. It's pretty quick and easy to find references to Jews and Christians; Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc... I still don't quite get what the Koran is supposed to be. I don't know if it is supposed to be considered the Word of Allah, or the words of Mohammad, speaking what he thinks of Allah.

 

[Buster]

I wish it were that simple my friend but I think it's much more complicated. We (as citizens of the United States - and as Christians) have largely been deeply grounded in prejudical views of the Islam religion. It is almost impossible to view them as our brothers and sisters; and wanting essentially the same peace and harmony. We think of mainly the 'radical extremists' and lump almost everything in that light. Sarah is the one who encouraged Abraham to have a child with Hagar and subsequently he was indeed his first son. It's a tough situation when you look at how Sarah treated Hagar after she bore a son for Abraham and largely forced Abraham to take them out in the desert and abandon them.

BUT the main point behind all this was GOD meant for them to know that he intended for Sarah to bear the son - and subsequently this came to pass.

Personally I don't think we should let something as trival as that devide us; it may be that the only way Christians or Islams can bring the other to their side is by demonstating a better love. Whoever lives their lives reflecting God's Grace and Glory will ultimately show the other a better way.

I'm not saying there isn't more to it than just that..I'm saying this is where it all started..the basic fundamental ROOT cause where the differences begin...they take on monstrous proportions after this time of Abraham and his family of course..

And Yes, YES to the comments below about the title of this thread..I do too wish it could be Christians and Muslims living along side each other, happily ever after..but we all know that's how a fairy tale ends too...See Fabijo post..

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

 

[Buster]

Koran, Surah 5:51

Pretty much says it all don't it..?

 

[fabijo]

Koran, Surah 5:51

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

 

[Steadygain]

There in lies the root of the problems we are seeing today between the two religions..

I wish it were that simple my friend but I think it's much more complicated. We (as citizens of the United States - and as Christians) have largely been deeply grounded in prejudical views of the Islam religion. It is almost impossible to view them as our brothers and sisters; and wanting essentially the same peace and harmony. We think of mainly the 'radical extremists' and lump almost everything in that light. Sarah is the one who encouraged Abraham to have a child with Hagar and subsequently he was indeed his first son. It's a tough situation when you look at how Sarah treated Hagar after she bore a son for Abraham and largely forced Abraham to take them out in the desert and abandon them.

BUT the main point behind all this was GOD meant for them to know that he intended for Sarah to bear the son - and subsequently this came to pass.

Personally I don't think we should let something as trival as that devide us; it may be that the only way Christians or Islams can bring the other to their side is by demonstating a better love. Whoever lives their lives reflecting God's Grace and Glory will ultimately show the other a better way.

 

[FUTURESTRADER]

HUH, really? When and where (keeping in it the 20th or 21st century if you can), in the name of Christianity?..

sorry, my bad. I was only giving the arguement half the attention some think it's due

 

[Buster]

lately??...beheadings occurred just a few years ago, which might as well be yesterday on a biblical timeline.

HUH, really? When and where (keeping in it the 20th or 21st century if you can), in the name of Christianity?..

 

[Buster]

So there aren't any Christian fundamental fanatic wackos who don't abide by the "love thy brother" precept? I'm so happy to hear that! :blink: I feel much better now.

Lady

Sarcasim is not your best suit....

But to answer your question..I think the cells of the Christian fundumental fanatics are a far and few compared to the Isalmic factions..and a good example is the KKK...So yes, there is radicals in every religion, just not as many as in Islam.

 

[XL-entLady]

Problem is..Islam, at least the fundamental fanatics...exercise the broadest sense of hypocrisy of any religion...
Quote:
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar
..I don't think I need to point out any examples..9-11 was a pretty good one..

So there aren't any Christian fundamental fanatic wackos who don't abide by the "love thy brother" precept? I'm so happy to hear that! :blink: I feel much better now.

Lady

 

[FUTURESTRADER]

Then that would mean there is no strife...and that isn't the case by a long shot..There is plenty of hate and strife and differences..Not in the sense we are playing a ball game either, but a holy battle for world domination..I don't think Modern Christians and Jews are trying to dominate by force and death to non believers..At least I haven't heard of any beheading lately in the name of God..

lately??...beheadings occurred just a few years ago, which might as well be yesterday on a biblical timeline.