Middle Class Bubble

[PessOptimist]

Well great, a discussion.

My comments on posts in chronological order, picking on no one.

Alevin - I'm not going to quote you, just make a statement and ask some questions.

Elitism takes many forms. I run in to it often at work in the form a person giving a briefing (usually mandatory attendance) who throws acronyms around freely and takes offense that everyone doesn't have a clue what they mean. I suppose it does provide the briefer an opportunity to later tell peers how stupid the prols are. I feel it is elitist in that not everyone thinks your job/project is the most important thing in the world, though you do.

With that in mind, what is PTB and what is M2 wealth. Warrenlm mentioned M2 first out of fairness. Should the rest of us just tune out at this point because we are stupid?

We have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Well, that and omibus bills that are filled with things that have nothing to do with the title of the bill itself.

I snipped this one quite a bit. Not that I disagree with the rest of it but I love the bottom line.

About Birchtree's story.. he said yesterday. Was it really yesterday? Entitlements were not always on a credit type card. I have observed much the same thing, much more openly. Put the authorized item on the counter, put the beer on the counter, submit the paper voucher, get change, pay for the beer. Mostly in small towns and a lot of nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Birch is not saying all people receiving funds from some level of government are misusing them, he is just stating he has seen it happen. Many of us have also seen it. With the cash cards now it is just a different way of doing it. Yes, I do see it occasionally. Travel in to areas outside your own ivory tower, open your eyes and you will see it too. Most of my state's cash assistance cards will allow withdrawals of cash from ATMs. At the register, all the store employee has to do is ring it up as something besides beer.

Whoa, y'alls worrying too much about the why and forgetting the what.

I know what that man did.

He bought food. With food stamps. Oh snap. Either he couldn't or wouldn't work for food. So we bought him lunch. Simple as that.

How many reading this are on food stamps? If not why not? It's free you know. Well, not really, it's on account.

On account of folks who contribute. Get with the program.

Unbelievable. Since when did it become fashionable to bash poor folk? I worry about you guys.

Including the donkey's post for context. clester, I worry about you based on the next post.

Btw, where does you paycheck come from?

I love this statement. I have seen it before on this very message board. If you feel that your federal pay check is in the same category as assistance, aka welfare; perhaps you need to examine your worth to the US government and if you actually do anything that is in the job description for your series. If not, you should immediately resign (not retire if eligible) and perhaps turn yourself in to LE for defrauding the US government.

I am a blue collar worker. Myself and most of my fellow craftsmen have jobs assigned and someone following up to see if that task was completed. We do not feel that our pay checks are or should be classified the same as public assistance. We work hard for our money. Under our WB system we lag behind our private entity counterparts by many percentage points. Some employees leave, some stay. None beleive we are bellied up to the trough for free bubble up and rainbow stew.

After you examine your statement and veiled accusation that the burro's paycheck is equivalent to public assistance, examine you own worth based on what you feel your own pay is based on; I am looking forward to the news you have resigned and are now receiving public assistance. We all must do what we can to reduce the deficit and ensure those unable/unwilling to work can have more.

In the mean time, those of us actually working to keep infrastructure operating will continue to do so without raises. Yes, we can always leave and try to find that equivalent public sector job. Strangely, some of us actually believe in what we do. We certainly do not equate our pay with public assistance.

Once again, any of you who believe your pay check is the same as a public assistance payment, please resign. I bet you agency won't even notice you are gone.

Very cool, while I was writing this FireWeatherMet posted. He suggests the money the homeless get is the same as burro's or my paycheck.

Burro my friend,
Just like the homeless
Who get food assistance from the taxpayer,
So you too get the similar assistance from the same taxpayer,
All of your food money, and mine, come from the same source,
From taxpayers, who probably have less health and retirement benefits than you or I,
Yet they still pay for your food, and mine. And your generous benefits, and mine,
Something for all of us to ponder this election year,
Just Remember...YES WE CAN!

p.s.
Hell, If I can have BirchTree be my vocal supporter for his bullish US economic stance,
Then maybe I can turn you around too?
​

I do not understand how any sane person can call a pay check for services rendered under a contract with the US government the same as assistance for a non worker. Most of us actually give the US government a service for the payment. Perhaps those that view it as assistance should re-evaluate their worth as a US govrernment employee and read the above paragraphs. The fact that it comes from the same source is not really relevant.

These are my thoughts on this subject.

I am looking forward to hearing about all the resignations of those feel their federal paycheck is an assistance payment! The deficit will be reduced and many work places will show improved productivity. I have much hope for change!

 

[Warrenlm]

Ignore that young misguided teenagerFireWeatherTwit

Warrenlm mentioned M2 first out of fairness. On the M2 remark, it's a key measurement of part of the money supply:
M2: Represents money and "close substitutes" for money.[SUP][13][/SUP] M2 is a broader classification of money than M1. Economists use M2 when looking to quantify the amount of money in circulation and trying to explain different economic monetary conditions. M2 is a key economic indicator used to forecast inflation. Laura writes check number 7774 for $1000 and brings it to the bank to start a Money Market account (these do not have a credit-creating charter), M1 goes down by $1000, but M2 stays the same. This is because M2 includes the Money Market account in addition to all money counted in M1. (wikipedia).
I always assumed the Asst Secys in briefings were using their handheld devices to access their acronym list when they were looking down at their hands, so you're in good company.

I have seen it before on this very message board Ignore him. He will grow up.

I am a blue collar worker. Be very VERY thankful. You have an advantage in the coming society.

I am looking forward to hearing about all the resignations of those (who) feel their federal paycheck is an assistance payment! Lost on the young guy.

 

[Warrenlm]

Unfortunately, i'm not sure where my paycheck comes from. I serve at the pleasure of the taxpayer, so i'd like to think it comes from revenue. But since we as a nation spend about 1.5 times what we earn, there's about a 1/3 chance it comes out of the free money pool....

Another way to look at it is that you're one third funded by creditors of the Nation, so you could ask yourself daily, "What have I done for (China, Japan, banks, pension funds...) lately?"

 

[Birchtree]

"You didn't build that" is swelling to such heights that it has the president somewhere unprecedented: on defense. In addition to "you didn't build that," the president also put down those who think they are "smarter" or "work harder" than others. Witness the first president to demean the bedrock American beliefs in industriousness and exceptionalism. The presient's disparaging attack on business has also made voters more open to a defense of it. I'm glad he has finally shown us who he really is.

 

[Warrenlm]

He's being misunderstood. He's being picked on unfairly. It's Bush's fault.

 

[Frixxxx]

 

[Birchtree]

I feel oh so lucky today that FWM is not striving to rip me a new one - can you all smell that superlative bull manure that is wafting across the board.

 

[tsptalk]

With the election coming up, I am considering opening a new area for politics again, but there's a catch.

I am considering a Private Political Forum - like the Premium Services forums where only those with permission to view can anticipate.

We know that arguments can get ugly in politics, even if clean and within the rules, and a private forum will shield lurkers and those uninterested from running across these posts.

It's obvious that some folks can't talk politics. They are passionate but don't have ability to talk civilly to someone with whom they disagree. So, a private forum will allow us to keep these folks out, while not having to ban them from the entire TSP Talk forum. We'll understand that things can get heated, but the forum rules will apply. Disrespect other members? Out. Name calling, etc. Out.

I'll think about this weekend. Any comments, suggestions, etc?

 

[Birchtree]

I often find it difficult to communicate with liberals without being somewhat vituperative - but I never use profanity. Would a name like peterhead be acceptable or is that too sensitive?

 

[ILoveTDs]

I know you can't tell them to **** off that is for sure

 

[Birchtree]

The term phoque means seal in French - but the pronunciation is the kicker.

 

[Birchtree]

Who is he calling old boy - there was a time when a woman would call me cute and the term boy was regarded as a compliment.

 

[nnuut]

I have no problem with those rules...as long as its not the old boys club deciding who's in or out based mainly on ones political views.
They are by far the ones who seem most prone to name calling, instead of just passionately discussing issues.

And who might that be?

 

[nnuut]

Those are some neat moving GIF's you got there Nnuut.

Thanks, I'm just taking names.

 

[Aitrus]

With the election coming up, I am considering opening a new area for politics again, but there's a catch.

I am considering a Private Political Forum - like the Premium Services forums where only those with permission to view can anticipate.

We know that arguments can get ugly in politics, even if clean and within the rules, and a private forum will shield lurkers and those uninterested from running across these posts.

It's obvious that some folks can't talk politics. They are passionate but don't have ability to talk civilly to someone with whom they disagree. So, a private forum will allow us to keep these folks out, while not having to ban them from the entire TSP Talk forum. We'll understand that things can get heated, but the forum rules will apply. Disrespect other members? Out. Name calling, etc. Out.

I'll think about this weekend. Any comments, suggestions, etc?

I know I'm new here, but I'll give you my 1/50th of a dollar on it. The best management I've seen was a system where there were 3 levels of access.

Level 1 was for newbies and lurkers only. These threads would be for things that the board and site were specifically set up for, and here I'm guessing it would be the Market Outlook, individual Account talks, etc.

Level 2 could be reached after you had posted a certain number of times and held threads on religion, politics, and other potentially flamatory topics. In the case I mention the number was 50 posts in good standing, meaning, that in the opinion of the moderators the individual had behaved well enough to be rewarded with increased access. In this way we were able to have lively discussions while at the same time protecting our reputation (such as it was) a little in the public eye. Having Level 2 was also a useful tool for behavior correction. Instead of having only the Ban Hammer to punish somebody, somebody could be Whiffle Batted back to Level 1 until they had earned their Level 2 privleges again.

Level 3 was reserved for the paying members. Level 2 permissions was a useful temporary banishment area for Level 3 miscreants who need to be Whiffle Batted back into line a bit. That said, however, I think that Whiffle Batting any Level 3s here back to Level 2 wouldn't be right as many Level 3s probably use the information in those threads to base financial decisions, so I would hesitate before utilizing that method here.

 

[tsptalk]

I have no problem with those rules...as long as its not the old boys club deciding who's in or out based mainly on ones political views.
They are by far the ones who seem most prone to name calling, instead of just passionately discussing issues.

FWM, you know that I respect you and your views despite our differences of opinion, but this kind of thing bugs me. How many times have you been banned from the forum? Our friend Birchtree leads in that category. And when's the last time you saw McDuck? I could name a few others. You don't know when we give negative reputation for posts, or send warnings via PM, or ban someone for a few weeks / months. I know you can't know what goes on behind the scenes. So please... I really do try to be fair.

I agree with you on the name calling side, but they are also more thick skinned and do far less complaining. I editted this post going into the stereotypes of each side, but I thought better of posting it.

 

[SkyPilot]

Wow! This thread has really been hijacked! Back to the main point, that being is there really a "middle class" and if so, is it temporary or sustainable?

Earlier someone posited that the middle class was an extension of the trade guilds of the middle ages, but to me that is not really equivalent to the middle class of today as they were owners, and the workers and apprentices really did not participate. But this may be an inadequate understanding on my part.

That brings us then to the question "what is the Middle Class"?

Is it financial status, social status, professional status or what?

This is not really political, but rather sociological isn't it?

Let us inform ourselves, and let out wisdom and understanding inform our politics, and not enter into the polarization that the politicos are depending on.

 

[Kaufmanrider]

Middle class is a state of mind.

Wow! This thread has really been hijacked! Back to the main point, that being is there really a "middle class" and if so, is it temporary or sustainable?

Earlier someone posited that the middle class was an extension of the trade guilds of the middle ages, but to me that is not really equivalent to the middle class of today as they were owners, and the workers and apprentices really did not participate. But this may be an inadequate understanding on my part.

That brings us then to the question "what is the Middle Class"?

Is it financial status, social status, professional status or what?

This is not really political, but rather sociological isn't it?

Let us inform ourselves, and let out wisdom and understanding inform our politics, and not enter into the polarization that the politicos are depending on.

 

[tsptalk]

I know I'm new here, but I'll give you my 1/50th of a dollar on it. The best management I've seen was a system where there were 3 levels of access.

Level 1 was for newbies and lurkers only. These threads would be for things that the board and site were specifically set up for, and here I'm guessing it would be the Market Outlook, individual Account talks, etc.

Level 2 could be reached after you had posted a certain number of times and held threads on religion, politics, and other potentially flamatory topics. In the case I mention the number was 50 posts in good standing, meaning, that in the opinion of the moderators the individual had behaved well enough to be rewarded with increased access. In this way we were able to have lively discussions while at the same time protecting our reputation (such as it was) a little in the public eye. Having Level 2 was also a useful tool for behavior correction. Instead of having only the Ban Hammer to punish somebody, somebody could be Whiffle Batted back to Level 1 until they had earned their Level 2 privleges again.

Level 3 was reserved for the paying members. Level 2 permissions was a useful temporary banishment area for Level 3 miscreants who need to be Whiffle Batted back into line a bit. That said, however, I think that Whiffle Batting any Level 3s here back to Level 2 wouldn't be right as many Level 3s probably use the information in those threads to base financial decisions, so I would hesitate before utilizing that method here.

Interesting idea. Thanks for sharing. We haven't really had any problems here, except when it come to politics. We tried it for a year or so, and it got so bad that I started a new, separate website just for that. That site got so unappealing to me that I gave it away to another member to run.

So we have 2 choices. 1) No political discussions here or 2) limited access. But your idea throws in another option. Thanks.

Sorry for the hijack SkyPilot. If this discussion doesn't end I'll move the posts to a new thread.

 

[Boghie]

SkyPilot,

I think the relatively recent problem with the 'middle class' is that we began to think we were rich. How many middle class families and individuals refinanced their houses or jiggered their credit cards to buy a new Lexus rather than a used Lexus or a smart looking Ford? We all watched (and some of us enjoyed being) folks who did this. Are you middle class if you own a McMansion, lease a new luxury car every three years, go out to eat three times a week, go on European vacations with borrowed money, etc.? The middle class has temporarily shrunk because we are deleveraging and learning to live like middle class again. It's not so bad. We will be back.

Now the nice thing is this: The fat is coming off. When the middle class does not waste their assets and learns to live like their middle class parents and their middle class grandparents and their middle class great grand parents (within reason of course - I ain't giving up my cell phone, microwave, clothes washer, television, high mpg car, efficient air conditioner, nice flooring, stone shower enclosure, or magnificent tungsten darts) we will actually bump up against the rich. It will be the free spending middle class that will become the working poor. The working poor will bump up against the responsible middle. That is how things work.

Now, if we could just get the middle class tax rate below 1/3rd of income. That would help, eh FWM. My tax burden is higher than my mortgage. But, to do so we have to accept that the Boomer Generation has demanded quite a bit more out of their government than prior generations and actually more than the current GenXers. Good thing we GenXers refuse to play and there are ways to shield income from the tax man. I still have a bit of room waiting in my 401(k) (TSP) contributions for the tax increase Governor Moonbeam wants to implement in Kalefornea. Message to Moonbeam and President Obama - I will absolutely Zero Out your tax increases. Did it before, know how to do it, and will act again.

Ah, that felt good. On topic - but able to launch a scud or two.

Wow! This thread has really been hijacked! Back to the main point, that being is there really a "middle class" and if so, is it temporary or sustainable?

Earlier someone posited that the middle class was an extension of the trade guilds of the middle ages, but to me that is not really equivalent to the middle class of today as they were owners, and the workers and apprentices really did not participate. But this may be an inadequate understanding on my part.

That brings us then to the question "what is the Middle Class"?

Is it financial status, social status, professional status or what?

This is not really political, but rather sociological isn't it?

Let us inform ourselves, and let out wisdom and understanding inform our politics, and not enter into the polarization that the politicos are depending on.