Mexican Border

More important,oranges in Fl are left on the trees due to lack of pickers.
Where are the locals that wish to work? It is really a crazy situation
with out an easy solution. Are you willing to pay more for your fruits
for unskilled work? I along with most agree that everyone should learn to speak english, is this really the problem?
 
Yeah, I heard about that also. I don't know the oj business or what tariffs the USA may have on imported oranges or juice.

But the growers will not take much of a financial hit because of it. If orange or OJ prices increase it will be because tariffs are too high on imported oranges and oj.

Lower the tariffs and prices will not increase. Import more oranges from elsewhere or start growing more orange orchards in Mexico.

Mow down the orchards in Florida and develop the land into residential real estate.

There are already too many problems with orange chancre in Florida and it (reducing the size of a subsidized American industy) gives those against "undocumented" immigration on less thing to complain about.
 
The problem in Florida is that many eligible workers - both male and female - already have employment with the State via the correctional system. They are in prison for mostly sale of illegal drugs - probably from Mexico. The donkey educational system has been concentrating on self esteem issues instead of knowledge retention. There are no easy answers.
 
Birchtree said:
The problem in Florida is that many eligible workers - both male and female - already have employment with the State....

..and then... :( don't forget the kids that didn't get born after 1970 who would not only be workers, but also contributing into Social Security for you `young whipper-snappers' to collect later in life!
 
Apache helicopters could rain on the Mexican military parade going on down there. We ought to turn the border into military gun ranges so our troops can practice shooting. Make it part of a BRAC program. They give us illegals, and we give them lead.
 
We really need to get serious about this problem. I lived in an area for the longest time that isn't a thriving metropolis. It has a population of 15,000 people. 5 years ago it was only 10,000. Crime has sky-rocketed and the police chief says their major problem is illegal immigrants. We has a home invasion gone bad a couple years back. Where the mom and daughter we killed and robbed along with other unmentionable acts. The man responsible is an II who has been deported twice. Granted this is only one situation but it's a problem. I dont have a problem with people wanting to come here for a better life but i do believe certain criteria needs to be met.

1) become a citizen. (stop mooching off of this country's goodwill)
2) learn english. (if you try but can't that's one thing. You tried though don't get mad when we don't speak spanish.)
3) obey the laws of this country and enjoy the freedoms of it.

Now comes our responsibility. I would much rather carry the bill and put troops, fence, and a ROE that allows us to shoot when illegals cross over. I think until we get serious and show that we are that we will have a serious problem. Maybe what we need is to show our use of force. But if we ever had to use a weapon to prevent a drug dealer from coming over or illegals from coming over then we'd hang ourselves out to dry. Why is is that our safty and security and economy is a target and we are more concerned about getting our own guys than the bad guys? Why?


(((((steps off soapbox)))))


P.S. You don't have to agree with me but really i don't care these are my feelings towards immigration problem.
 
Just in case the FBI is snooping around on this board, I want to set the record straight that it was an Illegal Immigrant who committed the above heinous crimes. :worried:


Hey TY Paladin. I should have specified earlier but got on a roll typing.
 
Now comes our responsibility. I would much rather carry the bill and put troops, fence, and a ROE that allows us to shoot when illegals cross over.
.

Years ago they had an incident where some Marine killed a mexican shepherd by mistake.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/border.shooting/


I've been staioned in the Air Force in Gila Bend AZ and have worked and hunted (quail) along the Mexican boder with Arizona. Where the border is can be tricky. And building a fence HAHAHAHAHAHA. You got to see the area to see that will never work. I've seen a fence no further then a quarter mile away from the main legal crossing area in Nogales, AZ (and there were cameras to) not keep illegals out.
You want to stop them? Keep the big corporations from hiring them. Fence won't work and Mom and Pop hiring them to build a patio wall is not what's drawing them-It's the jobs in construction, agriculture (meat packing, harvesting etc.) that pays the money.
 
Years ago they had an incident where some Marine killed a mexican shepherd by mistake.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/border.shooting/


Playing devils advocate. Innocent people die every day in iraq by our troops hands just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not that our guys did anything wrong. But when it comes to protecting our border it isn't ok? just food for thought.

I think our government isn't worth the paper it's printed on sometimes. I mean corporations can do just about anything and the only thing the government can do is punish them when the crime is already done. Case and Point Enron. It's not about the US or Russia or China anymore. There aren't really any borders anymore. It's all about profit. That's todays world we live in. Our elected officials are either just as corrupt or totally enept. don't know which is worse.
 
Playing devils advocate. Innocent people die every day in iraq by our troops hands just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not that our guys did anything wrong.

It's all perspective isn't it? Whether you post on a forum board, one of the Marines that did the shooting ( and live with that mistake), or a member of the deceased sheep herders family. Not having been there I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong. What I was responding to was the fact having troops, fence and an ROE is a not a panacea for stopping illegal immigrants. And that more incidents like that will happen if you deployed the military troops on borders. What you need are police not troops (i.e. Border Patrol, Customs and Immigration Officers-they are tailored and trained for that mission). As far as a 'wall'-there hasn't been one in history that worked - Hadrians, Chinese, Maginot or McNamara's.
The war in Iraq and the Mexican border are apples and oranges; They are not comparable -I mean I haven't heard of Gunships and Stryker Brigades deployed in Douglas or Yuma, AZ and soldiers busting down doors with out a warrant to stop illegals.

In a nutshell you want to stop Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans and Nicaraguans, Columbians and Cubans and Brazilians (oh yeah they're coming to) etc. from coming across the border looking for work in the US you sanction the corporations that hire them and explain to the American public why some of the prices of goods and services THEY ENJOY went up.

Neither political party and big business is prepared for that and the American public really doesn't want to pay more for food stuff and construction. This society -like every society - needs cheap labor. Thats the elephant in the living room.

Hell - even the U.S. Military is actively seeking and hiring non citizens (albeit they are legal-but they have always done that.)

and as if it doesn't get more complicated (and sad) sometimes.....
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/DHS_trying_to_deport_missing_soldiers_0620.html
I

I
 
I went through OCS with a lithuanian officer on an exchange program. He could not express his disblief at the complete lack of security along our border after seeing a section in Texas. He kept looking around for the standard towers and machine gun nests that comprise most borders of the world that he was used too (that aren't continuous mine fields). The iron curtain worked.

In any situation like this there are always going to be the onsie/twosie stories that pull on the heart strings. But for every story of injustice, how many hundres or thousands of stories are there of labor law abuses by corporate America, violently victimized US citizens, broken health care systems, failing social services, etc....Ultimately, the laws of this country make this illegal. I personally think we should take a huge chunk of the border and turn into one joint state prison system, that runs the length of some of our more accessable border. Prisons require so much security that it would kill two birds with one stone. As an added bonus, we put all our lifers on the border and if Mexico can't assist in getting the security together, we pull a Castro style Muriel Harbor on Mexico.

PS - The iron curtain worked.

..... As far as a 'wall'-there hasn't been one in history that worked - Hadrians, Chinese, Maginot or McNamara's.
The war in Iraq and the Mexican border are apples and oranges; They are not comparable -I mean I haven't heard of Gunships and Stryker Brigades deployed in Douglas or Yuma, AZ and soldiers busting down doors with out a warrant to stop illegals.
 
Look at my location on my profile and you can guess what I do for a living. Legal immigrants have to prove that they or the petitioner whether it be family or employment-based can support themselves. But, for the most part, once they're in the U.S....it's a quick trip to the public assistance line. Also, non-immigrants with valid documents routinely enter the U.S. because they know Medicaid will foot the bill for any type of medical expense. Just say the word "Mary Kay" (sic), and they know what you're talking about. I apologize for the length of what follows, but I lost the link to it and just had to cut and paste.


We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context
>his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration
>overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of
>America's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the
>name of Victor Davis Hansen talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia,"
>explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the
>entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until
>it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.
>
> Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and
>gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat
>spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United
>States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too
>self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard
>to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold
>Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An
>autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"
>
> "Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "First, to destroy America, turn
>America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History
>shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of
>two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an
>individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be
>bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The
>histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are
>histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and
>Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for
>autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria
>suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques,
>Bretons, and Corsicans.".
>
> Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent multiculturalism'
>and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of
>belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences.
>Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are
>due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other
>explanation is out of bounds.
>
> Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without
>much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As
>Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent
>success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been
>achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once
>dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left
>with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together."
> Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own
>language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the
>salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various
>cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather
>than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."
>
> "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least
>educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated,
>and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass
>have a 50% dropout rate from high school."
>
> "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations
>and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic
>identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all
>minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the
>majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure
>on the majority population."
>
> "My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship ,
>and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I
>would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide
>are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not
>killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most
>historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation
>together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they
>belonged to the same race; they possessed a common Language and literature;
>and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic
>games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these
>bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and
>geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E.
>Pluribus Unum" --From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the
>emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America
>as surely as Kosovo."
>
> "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to
>talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word
>similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and
>paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and
>debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having
>established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine
>of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our
>immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has
>been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every
>individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions
>of them."
>
> In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow.
>Profound silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor Victor
>Davis Hansen's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the
>plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed,
>don't read that book."
>
> There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous
>cloud above every attendee at the conference . Every American in that room
>knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly,
>darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being
>suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our
>educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that
>practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.'
>American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a
>Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to
>date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of
>George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in
>the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and
>"Ignorance is strength."
>
> Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the
>conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply
>in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster
>stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and
>destroy everything in its path especially The American Dream.
 
Great stuff....

Look at my ........

Check out the CIA factbook on Mexico and look at the population and GDP poer captia

Mexico is the worlds 13th largest country by population and ranked 88th in GDP (one ahead of the world average at 89). Mexico's GDP is better the Turkey, Romania, Ukraine and China and only slightly behind Russia (82).

The total GDP is 1.149 Trillion dollars making it the 15th largest economy in the world.

IMHO - The only reason Mexico is so screwed up is because it's Government officials are some of the most corrupt in the world. If it focused on fixing itself, controlling it's crime and drug lords instead of sucking off the US, it could turn itself around, like the US is going to do with our corrupt administration at this next election (hopefully - if we can actually cough up a candidate with some dignity :D)
 
Great stuff....


IMHO - The only reason Mexico is so screwed up is because it's Government officials are some of the most corrupt in the world. If it focused on fixing itself, controlling it's crime and drug lords instead of sucking off the US, it could turn itself around, like the US is going to do with our corrupt administration at this next election (hopefully - if we can actually cough up a candidate with some dignity :D)

Mexico's government is not corrupt. In order to be corrupted it would have had to been pure at one point!:toung:
 
For the most part i'm not disagreeing with you.

What you need are police not troops (i.e. Border Patrol, Customs and Immigration Officers-they are tailored and trained for that mission).
IMHO Border Patrol, customs and Immigration officer are troops. They are tailored for that mission but grossly undermanned and just like the troops in iraq they are doing a job they want but with their hands tied behind their back. "don't let anybody in who don't belong...but you better not hurt anybody stopping them." I agree that corporations need sanctioning...our government needs to grow a pair sometimes. But that is only half the solution. Men on the border who can shoot is another. I know what it's like to take a life and live with it. I did two tours in iraq. But it something I wouldn't take back becuase i defended this country from a foriegn enemy and will gladly hold that burden for my country. I think the BP or C&I officers would gladdly do the same becuase they take pride in their work.


As far as a 'wall'-there hasn't been one in history that worked - Hadrians, Chinese, Maginot or McNamara's.

The Berlin wall worked pretty good too :)



I personally think we should take a huge chunk of the border and turn into one joint state prison system, that runs the length of some of our more accessable border. Prisons require so much security that it would kill two birds with one stone. As an added bonus, we put all our lifers on the border and if Mexico can't assist in getting the security together, we pull a Castro style Muriel Harbor on Mexico.

Good Idea...I work for the prison system. We could have the entrance coming from the US side and the exit into the mexican side. hmmm:blink:
 
IMHO Border Patrol, customs and Immigration officer are troops. They are tailored for that mission but grossly undermanned and just like the troops in iraq they are doing a job they want but with their hands tied behind their back. "don't let anybody in who don't belong...but you better not hurt anybody stopping them."

I got to work with a few of these guys in California....and they deserve a lot of credit...these guys are awesome. They don't play around either. They have big hearts, but if some II decides to not play nice, he's can be in for a real "Rodney King" style rough day...II's do not have Miranda rights.

Good Idea...I work for the prison system. We could have the entrance coming from the US side and the exit into the mexican side. hmmm:blink:

..and maybe provide a two week stay as a pause point in the middle for those being deported.....as kind of a delousing, health and welfare thing :D.
 
I've got the perfect solution. We need to take a metal american flag and go up into canada and go down into mexico and claim them as our land. It works for the russians. :blink:
 
Just want to add that the National Guard is also helping secure our border. All 54 States and Territories are providing Guardsmen to support this operation. We currently have a company (-) in New Mexico and a 26 man team is heading to Arizona in a about a week. Imagine that from a territory that is almost 10k miles away;-)
National Guard has its strengths and weaknesses like other components of our service, however, it has now become an integral force within the Army and the only component that has the ability to conduct dual missions to support federal and state requirement.
Hehehe... Does it seem like i'm trying to sell the Guard here? Just in case any of you would like to join...

Pyriel
 
Just want to add that the National Guard is also helping secure our border. All 54 States and Territories are providing Guardsmen to support this operation. We currently have a company (-) in New Mexico and a 26 man team is heading to Arizona in a about a week. Imagine that from a territory that is almost 10k miles away;-)
National Guard has its strengths and weaknesses like other components of our service, however, it has now become an integral force within the Army and the only component that has the ability to conduct dual missions to support federal and state requirement.
Hehehe... Does it seem like i'm trying to sell the Guard here? Just in case any of you would like to join...

Pyriel

did 20 weekend warrior years in the air guard...paid a 'few' bills...well, maybe one small one :)
 
did 20 weekend warrior years in the air guard...paid a 'few' bills...well, maybe one small one :)
just rolled over 30 years and still ticking, (cable dawg)
hoping to hold on until they throw me out;
we've had several of our guys down on the boarder
setting up surveilance camers
and we have plenty of workload elsewhere

md
 
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