Fort Hood

[Birchtree]

The religion is not the culprit - it's the distortion by an ugly few. Imams that are imbeciles with sore knees. What would we say if they were Nazis?

 

[alevin]

The religion is not the culprit - it's the distortion by an ugly few. Imams that are imbeciles with sore knees. What would we say if they were Nazis?

One of the truest statements I've heard you make next, Birch. I had a Moroccan friend in grad school 20 years ago-practicing but not fundamentalist. He HATED extremists, absolutely despised them. Went home and founded a hospital for the blind and added a "Ronald McDonald house" for their families so they could stay nearby.

 

[Birchtree]

There was a time in my life when I was ready to die for LBJ - but I sure as hell wouldn't offer to sacrifice myself for no Allah damn Imam. Besides, taking care of one virgin is a full time responsibility.

 

[Frixxxx]

So basically it comes down to this... do we hate and despise the Islamic Religion because it gives us the GROUNDING to support our Negative Views....

My answer is no, The basis of Islam is steeped in the same beliefs as Jewish and Christian beliefs. Allah is God.

or do we stive to recognize the real beauty and love and true recognition Islam has for GOD and human relationships -- and realize that some individuals simply have a very distorted belief and they are 'mentally sick'?

Their belief in Mohammed as a messiah is what truly separates them. Mohammed is the prophet they choose to follow. Even when he brought unto himself a 7 year-old bride and consummated the marriage when she was 9. 9? This is where I have problems with Islam. A lot of laws for the Muslims were given to them by this prophet.

So, I know that there are a lot of Islamic people that would not condone this type of behavior. I know that Ft Hood is a tragedy and in light of the accused being a follower of Islamic faith is a cause of great concern.

But let's face it, the world is not perfect and we are tested from time to time to show our true faith. If you have faith the size of a grain of rice, it will influence you. No matter how mentally challenged or not.

My condemnation is that if it was 100% faith-based convictions that caused this, let it be known that it is not the American way of protest. Pick a side and stay true to yourself and your beliefs. I know plenty of Americans that hate the war and do not agree with it, but do not intend to lower themselves to this level.

Whew! I could probably go on, but it is in the hearts of all of you anyway.

 

[Buster]

Besides, taking care of one virgin is a full time responsibility.

Really?:nuts:..Birch ole boy..you need to start doing your homework...

 

[CountryBoy]

CB,
When I said something yesterday you said 'religion' had nothing to do with it.

Christians have been just as guilty as 'hate crimes' as any other religion. Christians have often felt justified in enforcing child labor, slave labor, and numerous other horrible human rights violations because once they become comfortable with themselves it's easy to ignore what you're doing to others. As long as YOU can pretend your way is better than others then you can solidly say with strong moral and ethical convictions -- The Native Americans are 'dirty savages' and be 'RIGHT' to destroy everything about them... to call the Blacks.. %)U*)(%* ... and destory everything about their integrity.

Are we going to say the Blacks were forced to the back of the Bus, that they were given the worst of conditions when it came to needing a bathroom or a drink ... when they were not allowed in almost any decent place ... because of the Christians??

Our view of Islam is totally distorted and we largely have the reflections you share because we want to support our hated and our prejudism and intollerance.... for now they are the 'dirty savages' and the 'n*****s' --

So basically it comes down to this... do we hate and despise the Islamic Religion because it gives us the GROUNDING to support our Negative Views.... or do we stive to recognize the real beauty and love and true recognition Islam has for GOD and human relationships -- and realize that some individuals simply have a very distorted belief and they are 'mentally sick'?

Steady,

The article I linked to also had this quote,

"Numerous criminal acts are also committed on a daily basis by non-Muslims. "

When non-Muslims perpetrate such an evil act, I'll be the first one to call them out also. When a Christian commits an evil act like you mentioned, I guarantee you, that the Christian community will ostracize this person or group. But lets keep things in historical perspective also. Historically there have been acts that were indefensible and I'm not going to even try to defend them one at a time.

Also, I didn't want to post the entire link, but this was also included in the article.

"Violence is institutionalized in the Muslims' holy book, the Quran, in many suras:


Quran 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's cause; they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."


8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."


8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."


9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."


47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

And the Quran is considered by Muslims to be the word-for-word literal edicts of their god, Allah.

Sounds peaceful to me. I'm far from a theologian, so I don't even want to get into this discussion, just wanted to introduce these points. Yes, the Cristians have done some awful things, but we have evolved from slaughtering the innocent and I haven't heard of any beheadings lately.

CB

 

[alevin]

CB, you are right, the Q'uran does say all those things. Just like the Bible says women should not cut their hair, are not allowed to teach men and should keep their heads covered in church and not ask questions til they get home. Many modern Muslims consider "jihad" to be their own inner struggle against their own character flaws, and external jihad to be moral lifestyle and talk of their faith-as persuasive to convince others to believe-many Christians think of evangelism the same way.

It's the extremists who go back to their historical beginnings and use those militant verses as their excuse for modern acting out in vicious ways.

 

[Buster]

And the Quran is considered by Muslims to be the word-for-word literal edicts of their god, Allah.

Sounds peaceful to me. I'm far from a theologian, so I don't even want to get into this discussion, just wanted to introduce these points. Yes, the Cristians have done some awful things, but we have evolved from slaughtering the innocent and I haven't heard of any beheadings lately.

CB

And even though the Christians did crazy stuff in the past…the Bible never once instills the “kill message” ever...it was only the Christian extremists that took it over the top...


Bottom Line...If you are in a land that is predominantly Muslim. carry a get out of beheading pass in your pocket, that states you are a believer in Islam...and keep screaming "Allahu akbar"

 

[CountryBoy]

CB, you are right, the Q'uran does say all those things. Just like the Bible says women should not cut their hair, are not allowed to teach men and should keep their heads covered in church and not ask questions til they get home. Many modern Muslims consider "jihad" to be their own inner struggle against their own character flaws, and external jihad to be moral lifestyle and talk of their faith-as persuasive to convince others to believe-many Christians think of evangelism the same way.

It's the extremists who go back to their historical beginnings and use those militant verses as their excuse for modern acting out in vicious ways.

alevin,

This is the exact reason that I didn't want to get into this type of discussion and except for teaching men, I've never attended a church that enforced any of those rules. Sure I know of them, cause being from WV, ya can't swing a dead cat w/o hearing about one in the area.

When it comes to religion, it is between you and your maker, not me, not Steady or anyone else. You have to decide for yourself.

And I'll say it again, this is about islamic terrorist, the atrocity that took place at Fort Hood. I'll not discuss religion, everyone has his own beliefs, and yeah, there is an exception to every rule, but I haven't been reading about Christians, flying planes into buildings, champing off heads or strapping bombs on themselves to blow up busloads of kids.

This is about why we allowed this murderous rampage to happen at Fort Hood, how did this guy even con his bosses from allowing him to stay, how do we prevent this in the future and are we going to continue to bury our heads in the sand and deny that this is a major problem?

CB, a Christian with feet of clay

 

[Steadygain]

My answer is no, The basis of Islam is steeped in the same beliefs as Jewish and Christian beliefs. Allah is God.


Thank you my beautiful friend -- sorry have been busy


Their belief in Mohammed ...

Yes I understand the Grounding of their faith and Mohammed's central importance.

In the same manner CB -- had mentioned Joseph Smith in the recent past but I ignored that because I think we need to be very careful when talking about the foundations of the 'Magic Spectacles' ... everything else that transpired.

So, I know that there are a lot of Islamic people that would not condone this type of behavior.

And I know that too my friend. I also know we need to strive to accept others' rights to worship and believe as they do. If they are in any manner going to want to come to the knowledge of His Grace and Mercy and be consummed by His LOVE -- it is only in our ability to extend it.

But let's face it, the world is not perfect and we are tested from time to time to show our true faith. If you have faith the size of a grain of rice, it will influence you. No matter how mentally challenged or not.
The world is far from perfect and this is why 'politics' - 'religion' - and life itself is so overwhelmingly screwed up. We are tested every single day and faith is everything.

My condemnation
You have no 'condemnation' -- for only God holds that ability and He alone is the true judge. Our condemnation is our flawed human nature and the short sightedness we pocess; our quirks; our tempermental outbursts; our judgemental and condeming attitudes; our constant refusal to help the needy.... and ultimately our refusal to let the Love and Life our God dominate our existence.

Whew! I could probably go on, but it is in the hearts of all of you anyway.

Your a wonderful man Frixxxx -- and Nina is still 'my baby' if only in thought.

 

[alevin]

It is a problem, CB, the guy was very obviously conflicted between duty and beliefs, he couldn't resolve them, even tho he went through channels to try-do they allow CO status anymore? I'm quite sure there are conflicted others out there. They need to be recognized before its too late and the problem resolved in a way that works for all before another tragedy happens.

With this guy, the warning signs were all there, people in authority didn't take it seriously. During Nam, COs were allowed to serve in non-weaponbearing capacity, fled to Canada or went underground, limited choices that wouldn't compromise their beliefs. They took their beliefs seriously. I've known 2 COs whose draft #s were very low, each made/were allowed a choice they could live with for the long haul. This guy, well, he wasn't allowed a choice he could live with, even tho he asked more than once. Maybe as Steady said, he just didn't want to deal with reality what he signed up for, but from what I've read, his beliefs began to develop most strongly after he signed up and before his unit came up for deployment, they weren't that strong before he joined.

 

[Steadygain]

Steady,

The article I linked to also had this quote,

"Numerous criminal acts are also committed on a daily basis by non-Muslims. "

CB

CB,
I have no conflict with you at all my friend and I think we are natured very much alike and our roots are similar.

As for the quotes....

The greatest destruction againt 'True Christianity' has been through the use of various Bible passages....


I simply believe we all need to guard against projecting another religion in a negative manner.

Politics is difficult enough -- but religion goes a lot deeper.

But I'm just a simple dude and nothing more.

 

[Viva_La_Migra]

alevin,

This is the exact reason that I didn't want to get into this type of discussion and except for teaching men, I've never attended a church that enforced any of those rules. Sure I know of them, cause being from WV, ya can't swing a dead cat w/o hearing about one in the area.

When it comes to religion, it is between you and your maker, not me, not Steady or anyone else. You have to decide for yourself.

And I'll say it again, this is about islamic terrorist, the atrocity that took place at Fort Hood. I'll not discuss religion, everyone has his own beliefs, and yeah, there is an exception to every rule, but I haven't been reading about Christians, flying planes into buildings, champing off heads or strapping bombs on themselves to blow up busloads of kids.

This is about why we allowed this murderous rampage to happen at Fort Hood, how did this guy even con his bosses from allowing him to stay, how do we prevent this in the future and are we going to continue to bury our heads in the sand and deny that this is a major problem?

CB, a Christian with feet of clay

What a lot of people forget is that the United States got involved in stopping the genocide that was going on in the former Yugoslavia. In that conflict, if memory serves me correctly, we were on the side of the Muslims, who were being killed by Christian Serbs. We are not at war with Islam. Radical Islam is at war with us.

CB, why would you want to swing a dead cat anyway? Hope it's not a pole cat, that would be stinky!:nuts:

 

[Frixxxx]

hope it's not a pole cat, that would be stinky!:nuts:

ewwwwww!!!!!

 

[CountryBoy]

What a lot of people forget is that the United States got involved in stopping the genocide that was going on in the former Yugoslavia. In that conflict, if memory serves me correctly, we were on the side of the Muslims, who were being killed by Christian Serbs. We are not at war with Islam. Radical Islam is at war with us.

CB, why would you want to swing a dead cat anyway? Hope it's not a pole cat, that would be stinky!:nuts:

Good memory Viva,

Swinging a dead cat, clears out more personal space.

 

[Birchtree]

Well we do know that Hasan was a coward - I wonder if he was also a pedo like Mohammed? Would this worm have taken shots at soldiers that were armed?

 

[alevin]

I expected you to weigh in when "CO" came up, Birch. With all respect, if cowardice was his true motivation-would you want a coward next to you in a combat situation? why not get him out out of "harms way" before he causes damage to fellow soldiers that way either?

 

[grandma]

My answer is no, The basis of Islam is steeped in the same beliefs as Jewish and Christian beliefs. Allah is God. .....Their belief in Mohammed as a messiah is what truly separates them.

Actually, Frixxxx, this is not quite so.
The God Jehovah, of the Christians and Jews, is the Living God, father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For the Christians he is also the Father of Jesus who was born of a virgin, died, was resurrected and now lives. God is the head of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Jews still wait for Messiah, Christians believe he has come & He is Jesus, God's only Son, and anyone can come to Him; entering Heaven depends only upon your relationship to Jesus-accepting Him as Lord. You can't earn it, work for it - it's a belief & life that comes from your heart & soul, that God gave His Son so that the peoples, tribes & nations of the world might return His love for them to Him.
To the Muslim: Abraham is their Father, but it was Ishmeal, not Isaac, who was offered at the mountain altar; it is abhorant to think that Allah would ever desecrate himself to come to earth as a lowly baby or to even die for the people, and he has no sons; Allah is a fierce judge, is strong and distant; it is sacrilege to think of God as a Trinity - three persons in one, that comprises worshipping multiple gods; they believe that they will never know for sure if they have worked hard enough or done the right things to earn their way into heaven until after death because Allah does not have a close relationship to them. That unknowing is the basis for the homicide-bomber tactics & yet even then they are still not sure Allah will accept them. They also are so firm in their belief that Jesus was only a phrophet, that Islam is the religion of the world, that it is their responsibility to see that that does happen.
The basis of Islam is steeped in Christian, Jewish and the various varities of these in existence in that 7th (?) century, plus the other religions that Mohammed encountered on his sea voyages with his sea-going merchant guardian ...I think it was an uncle.
The Koran and also the writings of Mohammed that were put together in later years apparently have contradictions, but both are considered blessed and mandatory.

The outward behavior of any particular individual is still a personal decision on their part, regardless of which group they lay claim to.

 

[Steadygain]

Well we do know that Hasan was a coward

And we know this because only when he was called into action did he respond the way he did.

What me serve in a conflict? What me be a real soldier? What me take a chance and get hurt?

And I would agree -- we could clearly consider this the all defining moment.

Would this worm have taken shots at soldiers that were armed?

Only if he were NOT a coward -- and then it would be the 'real enemy' he is fighting in battle.

Actually, Frixxxx, this is not quite so.
The God Jehovah, of the Christians and Jews, is the Living God, father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For the Christians he is also the Father of Jesus who was born of a virgin, died, was resurrected and now lives. God is the head of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Jews still wait for Messiah, Christians believe he has come & He is Jesus, God's only Son, and anyone can come to Him; entering Heaven depends only upon your relationship to Jesus-accepting Him as Lord. You can't earn it, work for it - it's a belief & life that comes from your heart & soul, that God gave His Son so that the peoples, tribes & nations of the world might return His love for them to Him.
To the Muslim: Abraham is their Father, but it was Ishmeal, not Isaac, who was offered at the mountain altar; it is abhorant to think that Allah would ever desecrate himself to come to earth as a lowly baby or to even die for the people, and he has no sons; Allah is a fierce judge, is strong and distant; it is sacrilege to think of God as a Trinity - three persons in one, that comprises worshipping multiple gods; they believe that they will never know for sure if they have worked hard enough or done the right things to earn their way into heaven until after death because Allah does not have a close relationship to them. That unknowing is the basis for the homicide-bomber tactics & yet even then they are still not sure Allah will accept them. They also are so firm in their belief that Jesus was only a phrophet, that Islam is the religion of the world, that it is their responsibility to see that that does happen.
The basis of Islam is steeped in Christian, Jewish and the various varities of these in existence in that 7th (?) century, plus the other religions that Mohammed encountered on his sea voyages with his sea-going merchant guardian ...I think it was an uncle.
The Koran and also the writings of Mohammed that were put together in later years apparently have contradictions, but both are considered blessed and mandatory.

The outward behavior of any particular individual is still a personal decision on their part, regardless of which group they lay claim to.

Whoa Grandma ---- You Go Girl

Study up on this and we'll have a quiz on Monday

 

[Frixxxx]

Actually, Frixxxx, this is not quite so.
The God Jehovah, of the Christians and Jews.....
To the Muslim......
The basis of Islam......
The outward behavior of any particular individual is still a personal decision on their part, regardless of which group they lay claim to.

In my attempt to paraphrase I left out the wonderful facts you provided.

I was really trying to say that at our core, we all believe in God, Jehovah, Allah, and the teachings of the prophets of early days. The history and teachings of creation and the way we should treat each other is so basic and proven in our earlier times.

Unfortuantely, the divergeance of messiahs and the message that have mutated afterwards have caused the wedges of discontent and fear. This is what I fail to fathom and comprehend.

Thanks grandma!