Corn and Ethanol.

[RealMoneyIssues]

You're funny. That ugly black gooey stuff comes from the earth! It's as much a part of the earth as water.

Uh Oh, it's gonna get ugly around here... :laugh:

 

[Viva_La_Migra]

Thanks!
Yep- that's the stuff. B99 biodiesel made from soybeans, and E85, made from renewable biostocks.

Much, much better for the earth than that ugly black gooy stuff.

You're funny. That ugly black gooey stuff comes from the earth! It's as much a part of the earth as water.

 

[James48843]

Took this just for you, James- enjoy. SeQuential BioFuels - Central SE PDX.

View attachment 14250

Thanks!
Yep- that's the stuff. B99 biodiesel made from soybeans, and E85, made from renewable biostocks.

Much, much better for the earth than that ugly black gooy stuff.

 

[KevinD]

Senate votes to stop ethanol subsidies

Senate vote marks start of end for ethanol subsidies

 

[crws]

Took this just for you, James- enjoy. SeQuential BioFuels - Central SE PDX.

 

[Show-me]

25 percent fewer BTU's does not equal 25% fewer MPGs. That is simply not true.

One BTU is approximately:

• 1.054 to 1.060 kJ (kilojoules)
• 0.293071 W·h (watt hours)
• 252 to 253 cal (calories, or "little calories")
• 0.25 kcal (kilocalories, "large calories," or "food calories")
• 25 031 to 25 160 ft·pdl (foot-poundal)
• 778 to 782 ft·lbf (foot-pounds-force)

• The BTU per hour (BTU/h) is the unit of power most commonly associated with the BTU. The term is sometimes shortened to BTU hour (BTU.h) but both have the same meaning.
• 1 watt is approximately 3.41214 BTU/h[SUP][5][/SUP]
• 1000 BTU/h is approximately 293.071 W
• 1 horsepower is approximately 2,544 BTU/h
• 1 "ton of cooling," a common unit in North American refrigeration and air conditioning applications, is 12,000 BTU/h. It is the amount of power needed to melt one short ton of ice in 24 hours, and is approximately 3.51 kW.

If you use the same car, weight, aerodynamics, etc. and the only factor you change is the btu content of the fuel then you would think that btu content to MPG would be proportional. Or damn close.

Horsepower and torque ARE btu's, auto weight and aerodynamics are the other part of the equation to get to MPG. Lower the btu and it takes more gallons to push the auto.

 

[Show-me]

Yes, it does in some cases. Look and the VW turbo diesel stats.

 

[Show-me]

P.S.- just for clarification- the Ethanol industry doesn't collect ANY subsidies.

The ethanol VEETC tax credit goes to the entity that BLENDS TOGETHER the ethanol and gasoline.

Today, that is done (95% + of the time) at an OIL COMPANY TERMINAL, by an oil company.

So it is the oil company that actually received that actual Ethanol tax credit.

Just trying to keep the record straight here.

Well then you should be all for taking money away from big oil.

 

[nnuut]

Another problem with your "BTU adjusted price" Nnuutt:

the federal road tax (19 cents a gallon) and the state road tax in almost all states (20 cents a gallon in my state) are calculated based on tax per gallon- not tax per BTU content. I WISH it was taxed at -per BTU content, because then it would be more fair to people.

I'd like to see ethanol road taxed 10% less than gasoline (because that IS a fair comparison), not the full 19 cent a gallon federal (plus 20 cent state road tax) where I am.

So now you know more than AAA? Amazing!!!!!! I don't buy that one either.

 

[Atarrin]

Someone made this point a few posts back, but it needs repeating:

Alternative fuels will only become widely adopted when the cost of oil gets so high (and the relative supply so low) that the alternatives become economically competitive.

I agree with James that some subsidies should be done to develop alternative forms of energy so that when the world's supply of oil shrinks, we will not be caught flat-footed with nascent technology. But we're in a tough time economically. Some things are going to be cut. Let's cut corn ethanol subsidies and focus what limited subsidies we have on other, more legitimate alternatives to fossil fuels.

 

[James48843]

Another problem with your "BTU adjusted price" Nnuutt:

the federal road tax (19 cents a gallon) and the state road tax in almost all states (20 cents a gallon in my state) are calculated based on tax per gallon- not tax per BTU content. I WISH it was taxed at -per BTU content, because then it would be more fair to people.

I'd like to see ethanol road taxed 10% less than gasoline (because that IS a fair comparison), not the full 19 cent a gallon federal (plus 20 cent state road tax) where I am.

 

[James48843]

We all know that diesel fuel contains more BTU's than gasoline.

http://www.eia.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=about_energy_conversion_calculator-basics#mogascalc


(138,700 btu per gallon of Diesel fuel, vs. 111,000 BTU's for a gallon of E-10 gasoline, and 81,000 for E85.)


So do you adjust the price of Diesel fuel for "BTU Adjusted Price"?

A car on Diesel doesn't get 20% better MPG than a gasoline car, now does it? Sure, it's a little better MPG, but not 20% better.

Same for E85. E85 isn't 30% less MPG's than gasoline. It is, in most cases, about 10 to 12% fewer MPGs.

 

[James48843]

according to the Energy Information Administration E-85 delivers approximately 25 percent fewer BTUs by volume than conventional gasoline

25 percent fewer BTU's does not equal 25% fewer MPGs. That is simply not true.

 

[RealMoneyIssues]

according to the Energy Information Administration E-85 delivers approximately 25 percent fewer BTUs by volume than conventional gasoline

Hence, the BTU adjusted price...

Not sure where diesel comes into this... This was a comparison of gasoline to ethanol...

 

[James48843]

Stop the BS!!
Ethanol is NOT cheaper than Gasoline!
This is miles per gallon and doesn't take into consideration the subsidies
BILLIONS of $$$$$ tax money.
View attachment 14196
​

"BTU ADJUSTED PRICE?"

BTU content does NOT equal miles per gallon. Yes, the MPG of a car on ethanol is not exactly equivilant as gasoline, BUT- it is NOT the same as the difference in BTU content. A flex-fuel car may get 10% to 12% fewer miles per gallon, NOT the 30% your chart reflects. That is truely not accurate.

Tell me-

What is the "BTU ADJUSTED PRICE" of diesel fuel, NNuutt?


Go ahead, tell me that. I'm interest in hearing that answer.

 

[RealMoneyIssues]

Stop the BS!!
Ethanol is NOT cheaper than Gasoline!
This is miles per gallon and doesn't take into consideration the subsidies
BILLIONS of $$$$$ tax money.
View attachment 14196
​

Just to clarify:

**The BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is the nationwide average price of E-85 adjusted to reflect the lower energy content as expressed in British Thermal Units - and hence miles per gallon - available in a gallon of E-85 as compared to the same volume of conventional gasoline. The BTU-adjusted price calculated by OPIS and AAA is not an actual retail average price paid by consumers. It is calculated and displayed as part of AAA's Fuel Gauge Report because according to the Energy Information Administration E-85 delivers approximately 25 percent fewer BTUs by volume than conventional gasoline. Because "flexible fuel" vehicles can operate on conventional fuel and E-85,the BTU-adjusted price of E-85 is essential to understanding the cost implications of each fuel choice for consumers.

Post 998

 

[nnuut]

Stop the BS!!
Ethanol is NOT cheaper than Gasoline!
This is miles per gallon and doesn't take into consideration the subsidies
BILLIONS of $$$$$ tax money.

​

 

[James48843]

But even of you have the money to build a Trash to Ethanol plant (Around $400 million is the price for this one), you still have to get buy in from the locals, AND you have to have bouth a source of the raw materials (trash), and a source for selling your product when you're done. (Fuel stations with ethanol pumps would be good, IF you have flex-fuel cars and pumps to pump it.)

See:

 

[James48843]

If all that is true, then the venture capitalists will be at their doorsteps soon to provide the needed seed capital.

Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see.

Got an extra $300 million in your back pocket to invest? Here's a good venture for you, if you do.

A barley-to-ethanol plant- located in the east. Already built. Ready to go. All it needs is...a willing investor.

http://progress-index.com/news/ethanol-plant-could-still-brew-profits-1.1154213

Go.

 

[goforit]

exactly give us choices. and from 7-8 billion bushels to 12-13 billion bushels is called demand. therefore driving up cost of corn. not saying there is a shortage of corn but saying the demand has drove up the value. yes it did help with not subsidizing the farmers which is a good thing. i am saying the exploration with other natural materials for ethanol would be a better fit because the amount of ethanol produced from corn is far less then the few you mentioned. algea and switch grass comes to mind. the problem there is the cost to get ethonal from these renewable resources is high because the technoligy has not caught up. therefore gov moneys from the farmers old subsidies should(if not already) go to the developement of such things. maybe we need to look at the Koreans model. if we had more choices there would be less stress on the oil usage. thats all i have to say about that.