Any Other Agnostics Out There?

[wv-girl]

Then it's pretty much all those like my mother and father, Cayman's father, WV-girl, Lady and all the rest who became what they are and learned to believe and see things as they do.

What does that tell you?

Hi Everyone,
Steady,

Faith is not a learned behavior.
Let me just say that I did not learn to believe. It is a very personal relationship between spirtual beings. And from a very early age (around 4 or 5) is when I became aware of what my mother referred to as my imageary friend. For me, thoughout my life, he has always been there. I cannot begin to explain to non believers how I know what I know, but when you experience it there is no denying it.

Just as you can never convince non-believers that he does exist, NO ONE will ever convince me he does not.

If anyone asks me, I will share my beliefs and experiences with them. If all they want to do is debate, then I follow the Lords lead and shake it off, like he says in the New Testament.

My best advice to anyone, is to find your quiet place, block out all of the outside influences, look into your heart, ask him your questions and relax and listen.

 

[kitepig]

Hello Miss Piggy,

Just answering the original question. I always tell people I'm agnostic, but I'm really trying to keep folks from getting riled-up because in reality I don't believe in a personal God at all. By some of the definitions of God that I observed in this thread, it makes me an atheist.

I don't care much for Bill Maher, but at the same time I'm a huge fan of Borat! Go figure?

PS. Where's that market bottom!? Its coming..

 

[Mike]

2nd Peter 3:8-10 - But you should never lose sight of this fact, dear friends,

John McCain wrote the Bible. Interesting.

 

[Silverbird]

Some people ask me, how can I believe in the scientific method, and be Christian?

To embrace ignorance is to deny responsibility. As soon as we cooked our food, ignorance and bliss went away - or else we'd never learn from a forest fire. A Christian needs to be responsible, and watch the patterns of the Universe.

Einstein's big mistake: "God does not roll dice" (no such thing as this Quantum Physics crazyness)
Quantum Physicists: Like dice, this seeming randomness has a pattern. Just because we can't see the dice doesn't mean we can't glimpse the results.

Old Church Thinking: The Earth is the center of the Universe. So we say. So it is
Reality: That dates back to Ptolemy. He was wrong, and furthermore, he was a pagan so it wasn't "as you said".

There are patterns we do not understand, there are notes in the music of the Universe that we cannot hear but are there, nonetheless, that we glimpse through experimentation and testing of theories. Beware of any mortal who says they've heard it all, or worse, expect God to change the song to save them.

 

[Steadygain]

Hi Everyone,
Steady,

Faith is not a learned behavior.
Let me just say that I did not learn to believe. It is a very personal relationship between spirtual beings. And from a very early age (around 4 or 5) is when I became aware of what my mother referred to as my imageary friend. For me, thoughout my life, he has always been there. I cannot begin to explain to non believers how I know what I know, but when you experience it there is no denying it.

Just as you can never convince non-believers that he does exist, NO ONE will ever convince me he does not.

If anyone asks me, I will share my beliefs and experiences with them. If all they want to do is debate, then I follow the Lords lead and shake it off, like he says in the New Testament.

My best advice to anyone, is to find your quiet place, block out all of the outside influences, look into your heart, ask him your questions and relax and listen.

WV-girl,
This is beautiful and a thousand times over reinforces what I somehow knew in my heart was true of you. THANK YOU!

Faith is not a learned behavior.
There is a difference between Spiritual and physical - and in that sense I know exactly what you're saying. Faith is an experience that is life changing - an all (and awe) encompassing event.

Perhaps I am wrong, but as physical beings I believe Faith that is LIFE CHANGING - and encompasses every aspect of our being has to involve Physical Changes that occur in the brain. My first major research was defining this 'Born Again' experience in terms of Brain Chemistry. I was convinced that LOVE - on the level of 'falling in Love' AND overwhelming feelings of TRUST were the most defining aspects by which this experience occured. I found the specific part of the brain most responsible for both LOVE and TRUST occured at the most central region of PROCESSING - that area where the most vital and permanent information is routed to all the final areas for permanent storage. Nothing makes this area light up like 'LOVE' on the 'Falling in Love' level and the ultra feelings of TRUST.

So I would not argue with you. I would simply say that perhaps the EXPERIENCE on Spiritual Levels in a physical being has to involve the Brain - and thus the changes in the brain are hugely responsible for the permanent changes (changes that can only be known by those who have had a Spiritual Awakening)

 

[CountryBoy]

Hi Everyone,

Just as you can never convince non-believers that he does exist, NO ONE will ever convince me he does not.

If anyone asks me, I will share my beliefs and experiences with them. If all they want to do is debate, then I follow the Lords lead and shake it off, like he says in the New Testament.

Amen wv-girl.

CB

 

[wv-girl]

Some people ask me, how can I believe in the scientific method, and be Christian?

That's an easy one. God is the greatest scientist that ever was or will ever be.

 

[Mike]

Beware of any mortal who says they've heard it all

Thankfully, we agnostics wouldn't make such claims.

 

[wv-girl]

WV-girl,
This is beautiful and a thousand times over reinforces what I somehow knew in my heart was true of you. THANK YOU!

Faith is not a learned behavior.
There is a difference between Spiritual and physical - and in that sense I know exactly what you're saying. Faith is an experience that is life changing - an all (and awe) encompassing event.

Perhaps I am wrong, but as physical beings I believe Faith that is LIFE CHANGING - and encompasses every aspect of our being has to involve Physical Changes that occur in the brain. My first major research was defining this 'Born Again' experience in terms of Brain Chemistry. I was convinced that LOVE - on the level of 'falling in Love' AND overwhelming feelings of TRUST were the most defining aspects by which this experience occured. I found the specific part of the brain most responsible for both LOVE and TRUST occured at the most central region of PROCESSING - that area where the most vital and permanent information is routed to all the final areas for permanent storage. Nothing makes this area light up like 'LOVE' on the 'Falling in Love' level and the ultra feelings of TRUST.

So I would not argue with you. I would simply say that perhaps the EXPERIENCE on Spiritual Levels in a physical being has to involve the Brain - and thus the changes in the brain are hugely responsible for the permanent changes (changes that can only be known by those who have had a Spiritual Awakening)

Steady,
We are spiritual beings that are "in residence" in physcial bodies. The spirit and the human body are at 'odds' with each other in that when one chooses to follow the Lord the spirit is in charge and you can control what the physical responses are and how to react to them. I do not, in any way, dispute your findings. As ones understanding grows, I am fascinated by all of the advances in the medical world. I hope that we will someday use the other 9/10ths of the physical brain to further both realities.

Silverbird said - "A Christian needs to be responsible, and watch the patterns of the Universe."

So true.

 

[Steadygain]

Some people ask me, how can I believe in the scientific method, and be Christian?

I have found that science proves God (Intellegent Design) more than anything else and that the Spiritual Experience awakens us to the Ultimate Truth.

To embrace ignorance is to deny responsibility. As soon as we cooked our food, ignorance and bliss went away - or else we'd never learn from a forest fire.

A Christian needs to be responsible, and watch the patterns of the Universe. And in doing this - and comparing these patterns to all life (humans, animals, trees and plants) we find a RHYTHM that is central to everything - the Theta Rhythm - which is the most fundamental aspect behind the interactions of the brain; which is the Base Rhythm of our Earth and thereby largely orchestrates the complex activities of the Oceans; and therefore is likely responsible for the complex activities in the various layers of the Sun.

The theta rhythm is simply a tool by which God is able to know all things and control all things - a tool designed to bring everything under one huge common theme.

Einstein's big mistake: "God does not roll dice" (no such thing as this Quantum Physics crazyness)
Silverbird - I'm impressed - really!! Yes we could say it was a mistake - which highlights 'To embrace ignorance is to deny responsibility' The underlying basis of Einstein's refusal to except things as they are is because it went against the bondries of his belief in God. So his God was confined to a box - and he absolutely refused to believe that reality (or God) could be beyond the boundries of that box.

Quantum Physicists: Like dice, this seeming randomness has a pattern. Just because we can't see the dice doesn't mean we can't glimpse the results.

Old Church Thinking: The Earth is the center of the Universe. So we say. So it is
Reality: That dates back to Ptolemy. He was wrong, and furthermore, he was a pagan so it wasn't "as you said".

There are patterns we do not understand, there are notes in the music of the Universe that we cannot hear but are there, nonetheless, that we glimpse through experimentation and testing of theories. Beware of any mortal who says they've heard it all, or worse, expect God to change the song to save them.

Will copy - paste - print this one. Thank you !

 

[malyla]

I hope that we will someday use the other 9/10ths of the physical brain to further both realities.

Modern science has shown that we use 100% of our physical brains, just not all at the same time. Amazingly, during mediation a significant portion of the whole is active which did surprise me. Neurology is a fasinating subject. Just read a article about what makes a good liar. It turns out that they have more neural transmitters of a certain kind (I'll need to reread the article to remember exactly what transmitter). Fasinating stuff learning about our brains.

In my experience, when the spirit and the body are at odds, sickness (physical or mental) results. The trick is to be comfortable in your body while being comfortable in the world.

 

[Silverbird]

Steady:

I'm with you, until the "Intelligent Design" idea. I believe God made the Universe so it is self-sustaining, and everything develops at its time. I don't think he created "special creatures" that do not fit the evolutionary process. The process itself is music, Man evolved in the time he fit in, as did everything else. It is not a flaw in the process that some did not survive - Earth evolves, changes, always. There is no perfection, nor ultimate creation, because that would imply stasis, which is flawed because it cannot evolve to the changing surroundings, to the destruction and creation that keeps our Universe adapting, and moving.

So, yes, I also follow Evolutionary Theory. With Science, we are trying to figure out how to work in the Universe, how to be responsible.

So far I haven't seen a true pattern - or anything to increase our knowledge of the Universe - in "Intelligent Design". "Intelligent Design" instead says, "You'll never understand some of these wonders, they will always be beyond your knowledge, there are things outside the pattern, notes thrown into the music." Which to me encourages throwing your hands up and taking the easy way out, and implies that God has to meddle in his own creation to make it work! That sounds like Man, not God - Man always has to meddle cause he makes mistakes.

"To everything there is a season" - even Man. And that is not a flaw in the music.

 

[Steadygain]

Modern science has shown that we use 100% of our physical brains, just not all at the same time.

The 9/10ths not being used is indeed a long standing myth. But WV-girl's underlying message could not be overstated. The POTIENTIAL we have to use our brains is barely being tapped.

Amazingly, during mediation a significant portion of the whole is active which did surprise me.
We did a study using Monks that have the most advanced methods of Mediation - and they typically mediate for hours and hours. We found the specific region of activity that dominated the mediative state was in the right upper front part of the brain. This region is most associated with POSITIVE THOUGHTS and the GENERAL SENSE OF WELL BEING.

Neurology is a fasinating subject. It's totally amazing; absolutely incredible. Just read a article about what makes a good liar. It turns out that they have more neural transmitters of a certain kind (I'll need to reread the article to remember exactly what transmitter). Fasinating stuff learning about our brains. We could easily do away with polygraph testing - and use Brain Imaging to confirm if someone is telling a lie.

In my experience, when the spirit and the body are at odds, sickness (physical or mental) results. That's beautiful and incredibly true. I think you and WV-girl are saying the same thing. When we allow the Spiritual to take control and are more in tune with the unseen yet very real aspect of existence - it results in the most HEALTHY STATE possible. The trick is to be comfortable in your body while being comfortable in the world.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Steadygain]

Steady:

I'm with you, until the "Intelligent Design" idea.

We are still in agreement; I just worded myself poorly and thus did not project more clearly what I meant to convey.

I believe God made the Universe so it is self-sustaining, and everything develops at its time.

Our recent discoveries of the dynamics of Black Holes - and our increasing awareness of how matter is cleaned, renewed, and the physics and chemistry by which new stars and galaxies are brought into being - very much SHOWS HOW THE UNIVERSE IS SELF-SUSTAINING.

I don't think he created "special creatures" that do not fit the evolutionary process. Perhaps we don't have to be in disagreement on this either. Maybe we could say that God brought the MUSIC into being and through this all things (including all creatures) are a reflection of this event. The process itself is music, Man evolved in the time he fit in, as did everything else. It is not a flaw in the process that some did not survive - Earth evolves, changes, always. There is no perfection, nor ultimate creation, because that would imply stasis, which is flawed because it cannot evolve to the changing surroundings, to the destruction and creation that keeps our Universe adapting, and moving.

So, yes, I also follow Evolutionary Theory. With Science, we are trying to figure out how to work in the Universe, how to be responsible. We can not do that as a Class 0 Civilization. First we need to advance as a Civilization.

So far I haven't seen a true pattern - or anything to increase our knowledge of the Universe - in "Intelligent Design". It's possible that this can only be understood or identified by a more thorough understanding of the brain and all life upon our Earth. The more we analyze the layers of the Ocean and the Sun - and understand them on the highest levels - the more we see this Design. "Intelligent Design" instead says, "You'll never understand some of these wonders, they will always be beyond your knowledge, NOT TRUE my love, just the opposite. there are things outside the pattern, notes thrown into the music." We'll probably never fully know - so yes your likely correct but the striving to understand more completey is the basis of everything I live for. Which to me encourages throwing your hands up and taking the easy way out, and implies that God has to meddle in his own creation to make it work! That sounds like Man, not God - Man always has to meddle cause he makes mistakes.

"To everything there is a season" - even Man. And that is not a flaw in the music.

Need to run...very busy day and so am having to get back to type here and there.

 

[peterson82]

Modern science has shown that we use 100% of our physical brains, just not all at the same time.

The 9/10ths not being used is indeed a long standing myth. But WV-girl's underlying message could not be overstated. The POTIENTIAL we have to use our brains is barely being tapped.

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years. For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail. This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

 

[Silverbird]

Steady
As for Civilization 101, I believe that ethics should be taught in the classroom. Because of the many religions we have in this country, it would be easier if we could seperate it from religion because everyone needs to be ethical. This is what is done in Asian countries, they often have a Shamanistic religion + Buddhism + Confucianism + Islam + Christians + Agnostics(can you tell I got my undergrad in Asian Studies?). Regardless of their beliefs, everyone is expected to engage in ethical behavior so Ethics is a required course starting at a very young age (grammar school).

However, in the U.S., ethical training is tied so tightly to Christianity that you cannot seperate the two. I know if you tried to create a mandatory "Ethics" class in this country, you'd be picketed so fast it would not be funny. If everyone went Sunday School at church, that would be fine. But it doesn't work when not everyone does.

Perhaps in the U.S., it should be taught as part of Civics. Ethical behavior is part of good citizenship, after all. I know there is an attempt to fit it into Science classes, but it doesn't belong there. It's like trying to teach it as part of the Pythagorean Theory.

 

[Steadygain]

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years.

Indeed - there are quite a few that have incredible RECALL and the wiring and networks of our brain are the most central features of our existence. This distinguishes us far more than gender, race, or religion.

For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail.

This is a "quirk" in her wiring - and it's unfortunate; but new and more advanced methods of healing the brain have arrived.

This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

This is quite an insight. Let me say briefly that the overwhelmingly bulk of brain processing INVOLVES THIS FILTERING PROCESS so that redundant and trival stuff can be trashed and not interfere with "normal life". In otherwords - most of the activity is making sure that the information that supplies the 'needed balance' is what takes control.

 

[Steadygain]

Steady
As for Civilization 101, I believe that ethics should be taught in the classroom. Because of the many religions we have in this country, it would be easier if we could seperate it from religion because everyone needs to be ethical. This is what is done in Asian countries, they often have a Shamanistic religion + Buddhism + Confucianism + Islam + Christians + Agnostics(can you tell I got my undergrad in Asian Studies?). Regardless of their beliefs, everyone is expected to engage in ethical behavior so Ethics is a required course starting at a very young age (grammar school).

However, in the U.S., ethical training is tied so tightly to Christianity that you cannot seperate the two. I know if you tried to create a mandatory "Ethics" class in this country, you'd be picketed so fast it would not be funny. If everyone went Sunday School at church, that would be fine. But it doesn't work when not everyone does.

Perhaps in the U.S., it should be taught as part of Civics. Ethical behavior is part of good citizenship, after all. I know there is an attempt to fit it into Science classes, but it doesn't belong there, its like trying to teach it alongside Algebra.

Now I'll probably sound like WV-girl. Ethics (perhaps) is something that has to be EXPERIENCED - and is not something that's learned in our usual manner of expression.

The Truest and Purest Ethics stem from a Spiritual Relationship. My belief is - it has to start with my and you - it has to be a personal endeavor that takes root and carries us through life. Then I believe we need to compliment that endeavor by letting this Spiritual Experience intensify though the bonding with others. I believe our homes need to be the PRIMARY FOCUS and then we could carry that over to school, work, and everywhere else.

Well this will probably shock you - but I do not believe going to Sunday School, church, or practicing rituals such as the Holy Water, Communion, Baptism...and so forth make us any more SPIRITUAL or ETHICAL unless it FIRST COMES FROM WITHIN - It has to be an authenic INTERNAL PROCESS that changes our existence before the external events can have true meaning.

 

[Silverbird]

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years. For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail. This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

She was on a TV special on on the brain (PBS?), she was in essence "haunted" by events. The commentator would tell her a date on the calendar, the woman would remember everything that happened, even down to what was for lunch. She would go out of her way to avoid painful events if possible, because they would be in her head with every detail, and lived with the fear that she might experience something that she could not handle replaying in her head in full color and emotion.

 

[Frixxxx]

.....

Well this will probably shock you - but I do not believe going to Sunday School, church, or practicing rituals such as the Holy Water, Communion, Baptism...and so forth make us any more SPIRITUAL or ETHICAL unless it FIRST COMES FROM WITHIN - It has to be an authenic INTERNAL PROCESS that changes our existence before the external events can have true meaning.

Well put, most Christians will tell you that they are the worst hypocrites when it comes to doing things "Christ-like". Ethics are those things that you would not do JUST because it felt wrong. Is it ethical to drive 60 in a 55? Ethics tell us no, for driving on a road with a set speed limit "EVERYONE" must adhere to that speed because someone has determined the best "LIMIT". Now, if the sign said recommended speed of 55, then ethically, driving over 55 might be acceptable. But then what boundaries are you setting with recommendations?

Honestly, speed limits are man laws, not a law from any gods. So, just an example for Silverbird. There are many more "ethical examples" without a religious ties that can be "taught" to the masses.

Ethics are great when dealing with our fellow man. But ethics are wonderful when rooted in our beliefs. No matter what they are!