Any Other Agnostics Out There?

[The HalfBreed]

One should not get Agnostics and Atheists confused. They ARE different.


Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

Word History: An Atheist is One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.



So, an Agnostic CAN believe in the existance of God, whereas an Atheist denies that one exists.

For those that get it confused, they should learn the difference between the two.

 

[McDuck]

 

[Steadygain]

"Deerhunter" is harder to watch, according to my vetran neighbors, but much more to the heart of the matter. Rambo, is the nightmare, the boogie man, the worst possible outcome of getting affected by the switch, so most Special Forces, Seals and related Servicepersons my sig others knows from work he did with the Navy and Army (sorry if my terminology is off here, I am not part of the Family) hate that movie because it romantisizes and justifies that response, and sort of implies it is even....normal...for well trained and disciplined warriors. They refuse to watch it and wish it never went to reel. From what I've studied of Profiling, even the worst criminal, unless they are completely off their rocker, have a justification for what they do. So it is understandable that the Rambo brand of justification would be exactly what Special Forces types would try their hardest to reject.

So you might want to re-consider Deerhunter, except with the caveat that it IS close to the heart of the matter, and so haunts some vetrans more.

Darling, thank you for your response but this is honestly a matter that only those who were thoroughly combat soldiers in real life and did everything possible for 'The Mission' can understand. You ARE a soldier 100% and nothing else; you are wholly government property and in place to accomplish the Mission. The better you are the more they reward you. I made the highest rank possible (which for the moment was rewarding) and was called over and over for bigger Missions. In that setting you are totally justified to do whatever it takes - and when you accomplish the goal you acknowledge the respect you've earned. In that setting it all makes sense; but this does nothing to prepare you for civilian life.

I'll never watch anything like Rambo, the Deerhunter, or anything else along those lines. Sadly enough - I am no longer qualified to be the soldier they need as I'm too old and out of shape. But my mind behaves like I'm still in my prime and ready for action - and it's the last thing I need. So thanks - but no thanks.

 

[fabijo]

I believe there are agnostics out there, but you can never really know what they are like.

 

[Buster]

It is with all my undying respect and admiration for the men and women that served in Vietnam and all wars, that maintained this country's greatness, so I have the freedom to type this...


But, to add.."Saving Private Ryan" was also very hard to watch for the WWII vets...I seen a lot of men my fathers age leaving the theater with tears in their eyes...


Thank you

 

[Silverbird]

Birch,
I'm honestly amazed you'd be able to watch a movie like that. I watched the lastest Rambo movie at home a month ago and that really set me back for a couple of weeks.

His comments: 'You made me this way' or 'It's not a switch you CAN turn off' really rang true for me.

I'd been doing well for quite awhile and had to go through a few tough weeks after that. The 'Deerhunter' would be too much for me.

"Deerhunter" is harder to watch, according to my vetran neighbors, but much more to the heart of the matter. Rambo, is the nightmare, the boogie man, the worst possible outcome of getting affected by the switch, so most Special Forces, Seals and related Servicepersons my sig others knows from work he did with the Navy and Army (sorry if my terminology is off here, I am not part of the Family) hate that movie because it romantisizes and justifies that response, and sort of implies it is even....normal...for well trained and disciplined warriors. They refuse to watch it and wish it never went to reel. From what I've studied of Profiling, even the worst criminal, unless they are completely off their rocker, have a justification for what they do. So it is understandable that the Rambo brand of justification would be exactly what Special Forces types would try their hardest to reject.

So you might want to re-consider Deerhunter, except with the caveat that it IS close to the heart of the matter, and so haunts some vetrans more.

 

[Gumby]

At that instant the Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!"

Time Stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light and said, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?"

"Very Well," said the voice.

The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

"Dear Lord bless this food, for which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

LOL

 

[Buster]

At that instant the Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!"

Time Stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light and said, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?"

"Very Well," said the voice.

The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

"Dear Lord bless this food, for which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

 

[Steadygain]

From "The Deerhunter" one of my all time favorites.

Birch,
I'm honestly amazed you'd be able to watch a movie like that. I watched the lastest Rambo movie at home a month ago and that really set me back for a couple of weeks.

His comments: 'You made me this way' or 'It's not a switch you CAN turn off' really rang true for me.

I'd been doing well for quite awhile and had to go through a few tough weeks after that. The 'Deerhunter' would be too much for me.

 

[Birchtree]

From "The Deerhunter" one of my all time favorites.

 

[McDuck]

 

[Steadygain]

Do you consider sounding like me is a bad thing?:laugh:
Thank you for being much more articulate than I am. (You really are very perceptive) This mb is the first and only mb I have ever participated in, so I am learning(slowly) .

Wow! Thanks for writting in 'my color'

You just keep on being EXACTLY as you are - and I'd be delighted to sound like you. This is my first time as well. I bombed out as with the TSP - so decided to seek better and more wonderful adventures


Not shocked. I have found that some church's can be more of the devil's (for lack of a better descriptive) playground for causing all kinds of problems within its congregation. So again we are in agreement.

Church is important to me for a number of reasons: I give 10% and trust that God will honor that to the Benefit of Others, I thrive on the fellowship and family bonds, it's a way of rededicating and renewing committments, I can sing with all my heart...

 

[wv-girl]

Now I'll probably sound like WV-girl. Ethics (perhaps) is something that has to be EXPERIENCED - and is not something that's learned in our usual manner of expression.

The Truest and Purest Ethics stem from a Spiritual Relationship. My belief is - it has to start with my and you - it has to be a personal endeavor that takes root and carries us through life. Then I believe we need to compliment that endeavor by letting this Spiritual Experience intensify though the bonding with others. I believe our homes need to be the PRIMARY FOCUS and then we could carry that over to school, work, and everywhere else.

Well this will probably shock you - but I do not believe going to Sunday School, church, or practicing rituals such as the Holy Water, Communion, Baptism...and so forth make us any more SPIRITUAL or ETHICAL unless it FIRST COMES FROM WITHIN - It has to be an authenic INTERNAL PROCESS that changes our existence before the external events can have true meaning.

Do you consider sounding like me is a bad thing?:laugh:
Thank you for being much more articulate than I am. (You really are very perceptive) This mb is the first and only mb I have ever participated in, so I am learning(slowly) .




Not shocked. I have found that some church's can be more of the devil's (for lack of a better descriptive) playground for causing all kinds of problems within its congregation. So again we are in agreement.

 

[Frixxxx]

.....

Well this will probably shock you - but I do not believe going to Sunday School, church, or practicing rituals such as the Holy Water, Communion, Baptism...and so forth make us any more SPIRITUAL or ETHICAL unless it FIRST COMES FROM WITHIN - It has to be an authenic INTERNAL PROCESS that changes our existence before the external events can have true meaning.

Well put, most Christians will tell you that they are the worst hypocrites when it comes to doing things "Christ-like". Ethics are those things that you would not do JUST because it felt wrong. Is it ethical to drive 60 in a 55? Ethics tell us no, for driving on a road with a set speed limit "EVERYONE" must adhere to that speed because someone has determined the best "LIMIT". Now, if the sign said recommended speed of 55, then ethically, driving over 55 might be acceptable. But then what boundaries are you setting with recommendations?

Honestly, speed limits are man laws, not a law from any gods. So, just an example for Silverbird. There are many more "ethical examples" without a religious ties that can be "taught" to the masses.

Ethics are great when dealing with our fellow man. But ethics are wonderful when rooted in our beliefs. No matter what they are!

 

[Silverbird]

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years. For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail. This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

She was on a TV special on on the brain (PBS?), she was in essence "haunted" by events. The commentator would tell her a date on the calendar, the woman would remember everything that happened, even down to what was for lunch. She would go out of her way to avoid painful events if possible, because they would be in her head with every detail, and lived with the fear that she might experience something that she could not handle replaying in her head in full color and emotion.

 

[Steadygain]

Steady
As for Civilization 101, I believe that ethics should be taught in the classroom. Because of the many religions we have in this country, it would be easier if we could seperate it from religion because everyone needs to be ethical. This is what is done in Asian countries, they often have a Shamanistic religion + Buddhism + Confucianism + Islam + Christians + Agnostics(can you tell I got my undergrad in Asian Studies?). Regardless of their beliefs, everyone is expected to engage in ethical behavior so Ethics is a required course starting at a very young age (grammar school).

However, in the U.S., ethical training is tied so tightly to Christianity that you cannot seperate the two. I know if you tried to create a mandatory "Ethics" class in this country, you'd be picketed so fast it would not be funny. If everyone went Sunday School at church, that would be fine. But it doesn't work when not everyone does.

Perhaps in the U.S., it should be taught as part of Civics. Ethical behavior is part of good citizenship, after all. I know there is an attempt to fit it into Science classes, but it doesn't belong there, its like trying to teach it alongside Algebra.

Now I'll probably sound like WV-girl. Ethics (perhaps) is something that has to be EXPERIENCED - and is not something that's learned in our usual manner of expression.

The Truest and Purest Ethics stem from a Spiritual Relationship. My belief is - it has to start with my and you - it has to be a personal endeavor that takes root and carries us through life. Then I believe we need to compliment that endeavor by letting this Spiritual Experience intensify though the bonding with others. I believe our homes need to be the PRIMARY FOCUS and then we could carry that over to school, work, and everywhere else.

Well this will probably shock you - but I do not believe going to Sunday School, church, or practicing rituals such as the Holy Water, Communion, Baptism...and so forth make us any more SPIRITUAL or ETHICAL unless it FIRST COMES FROM WITHIN - It has to be an authenic INTERNAL PROCESS that changes our existence before the external events can have true meaning.

 

[Steadygain]

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years.

Indeed - there are quite a few that have incredible RECALL and the wiring and networks of our brain are the most central features of our existence. This distinguishes us far more than gender, race, or religion.

For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail.

This is a "quirk" in her wiring - and it's unfortunate; but new and more advanced methods of healing the brain have arrived.

This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

This is quite an insight. Let me say briefly that the overwhelmingly bulk of brain processing INVOLVES THIS FILTERING PROCESS so that redundant and trival stuff can be trashed and not interfere with "normal life". In otherwords - most of the activity is making sure that the information that supplies the 'needed balance' is what takes control.

 

[Silverbird]

Steady
As for Civilization 101, I believe that ethics should be taught in the classroom. Because of the many religions we have in this country, it would be easier if we could seperate it from religion because everyone needs to be ethical. This is what is done in Asian countries, they often have a Shamanistic religion + Buddhism + Confucianism + Islam + Christians + Agnostics(can you tell I got my undergrad in Asian Studies?). Regardless of their beliefs, everyone is expected to engage in ethical behavior so Ethics is a required course starting at a very young age (grammar school).

However, in the U.S., ethical training is tied so tightly to Christianity that you cannot seperate the two. I know if you tried to create a mandatory "Ethics" class in this country, you'd be picketed so fast it would not be funny. If everyone went Sunday School at church, that would be fine. But it doesn't work when not everyone does.

Perhaps in the U.S., it should be taught as part of Civics. Ethical behavior is part of good citizenship, after all. I know there is an attempt to fit it into Science classes, but it doesn't belong there. It's like trying to teach it as part of the Pythagorean Theory.

 

[peterson82]

Modern science has shown that we use 100% of our physical brains, just not all at the same time.

The 9/10ths not being used is indeed a long standing myth. But WV-girl's underlying message could not be overstated. The POTIENTIAL we have to use our brains is barely being tapped.

There was a story I read about a few months ago about a woman that can remember every detail in her life going back many years. For instance, she can remember what errands she ran on a particular day 15 years ago, etc. This actually was a problem for her because she could not avoid thinking about things that happened 10-15 years ago in great detail. This made me think about why we do not use our brain to capacity... we need to forget in order to keep things in the present in order.

 

[Steadygain]

Steady:

I'm with you, until the "Intelligent Design" idea.

We are still in agreement; I just worded myself poorly and thus did not project more clearly what I meant to convey.

I believe God made the Universe so it is self-sustaining, and everything develops at its time.

Our recent discoveries of the dynamics of Black Holes - and our increasing awareness of how matter is cleaned, renewed, and the physics and chemistry by which new stars and galaxies are brought into being - very much SHOWS HOW THE UNIVERSE IS SELF-SUSTAINING.

I don't think he created "special creatures" that do not fit the evolutionary process. Perhaps we don't have to be in disagreement on this either. Maybe we could say that God brought the MUSIC into being and through this all things (including all creatures) are a reflection of this event. The process itself is music, Man evolved in the time he fit in, as did everything else. It is not a flaw in the process that some did not survive - Earth evolves, changes, always. There is no perfection, nor ultimate creation, because that would imply stasis, which is flawed because it cannot evolve to the changing surroundings, to the destruction and creation that keeps our Universe adapting, and moving.

So, yes, I also follow Evolutionary Theory. With Science, we are trying to figure out how to work in the Universe, how to be responsible. We can not do that as a Class 0 Civilization. First we need to advance as a Civilization.

So far I haven't seen a true pattern - or anything to increase our knowledge of the Universe - in "Intelligent Design". It's possible that this can only be understood or identified by a more thorough understanding of the brain and all life upon our Earth. The more we analyze the layers of the Ocean and the Sun - and understand them on the highest levels - the more we see this Design. "Intelligent Design" instead says, "You'll never understand some of these wonders, they will always be beyond your knowledge, NOT TRUE my love, just the opposite. there are things outside the pattern, notes thrown into the music." We'll probably never fully know - so yes your likely correct but the striving to understand more completey is the basis of everything I live for. Which to me encourages throwing your hands up and taking the easy way out, and implies that God has to meddle in his own creation to make it work! That sounds like Man, not God - Man always has to meddle cause he makes mistakes.

"To everything there is a season" - even Man. And that is not a flaw in the music.

Need to run...very busy day and so am having to get back to type here and there.