What YOU can do to fight back - IFT limit

Is this accurate? -from the "tracker results!
Sure hope not!... :sick:

FuturesTrader
Allocation date / timeIFT date (COB)G %F %C %S %I %L2040 %L2030 %L2020 %L2010 %Income %
2008-02-29 21:31:042008-03-03100000000000
2007-10-03 11:47:422007-10-03500050000000
2007-10-02 11:57:342007-10-020350353000000
2007-09-28 10:46:142007-09-2820200303000000


no..I haven't been updating the tracker
 
Sorry to hear that. Do mind telling us your trading pattern this year/month? ie how many transfers have you been making.

Thanks

I've pretty much made IFTs every day, (kinda like rebalancing?) nibbling in or out 10%-20%
from each fund depending on what I determined the trend to be. I was one of the 3000.
 
Sorry to hear that. Do mind telling us your trading pattern this year/month? ie how many transfers have you been making.
Thanks
I got my letter the end of Jan - effective for Feb - 3 IFTs & I did stick to that (for Feb). I did do 2 "rebalancing IFTs" for March, + 2 pullbacks to G, 1 being full to G, the other a partial to G (part to F). - By my read, from the Acct Statement they sent subsequently, & from the FTIRB Fed. Reg. Pub. -the latter is not disallowed!
(- nothing "certified" yet, here, but now very concerned)

Is your activity accurate? for your activity since this year-from the "tracker results! (Sure hope not!...) :sick:
FuturesTrader
Allocation date / timeIFT date (COB)G %F %C %S %I %L2040 %L2030 %L2020 %L2010 %Income %
2008-02-29 21:31:042008-03-03100000000000
2007-10-03 11:47:422007-10-03500050000000
2007-10-02 11:57:342007-10-020350353000000
2007-09-28 10:46:142007-09-2820200303000000

(1 IFT this year??)
 
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Did they say when you would be allowed to make IFTs online again?

"In my letter of January 24, 2008, I notified you that, as authorized by Federal Regulation, the Federal Thift Investment Board planned to implement restrictions to limit interfund transfers (IFTs). I explained that while we were finalizing the structural policy changes to the Thrift Savings Plan interfund transfer program, we were contacting participants who had most recently made multiple interfund transfers (i.e., participants who had made more than three IFTs in October, November, and December 2007) and asking them to voluntarily limit their IFT activity. I noted that if they did not limit their activity to fewer than four IFTs in February 2008, they might be restricted to requesting IFTs by mail.

According to our records, you exceeded the three IFT limit in February. Therefore, effective noon eastern time on March 31, 2008, you will be prohibited froom making IFTs electronically, but you mayy request IFTs by mail until the structural policy restrictions are implemented. The requirement that you submit your requests by mail applies regardless of wjere you want to move your funds, including transfers into the Government Securities (G) fund.

Note: This restriction does not apply to contribution allocation changes. You may continue to use the web site or Thriftline, or contact a participant service representative to execute a contribution allocation change.

Enclosed are three copies of the Form TSP-50, Investment Allocation, for your use. The mailing address is on the form. You may make copies of the form or contact the TSP at the number below and request additional copies. The Investment Allocation form is not available in the Forms & Publications section of the TSP Web site. However, if you attempt to make an IFT through Account Access, you will recieve an error message containing a special link to the Investment Allocation form, allowing you to download the form.

Investment Allocation forms are processed as they are recieved at our mail facility and are handled first-in, first out basis. Therefore, requests for expedited handling of a form will not be honored.

The regulation proposing the structural restrictions has been published in the Federal Register for comment. Links to both the interim regulations in place now and the proposed structural regulations can be found at www.frtib.gov and www.tsp.gov (Whats New or Inormation about Inreund Transfer Restrictions). We do not expect the structural restrictions to be implemented before May 1, 2008.

We regret the need for this action. However, these restrictions are necessary because of the higher transaction costs and reduced investment returns for all participants in the affected TSP funds, and the greater risk of performance deviation from the TSP Funds' benchmark indexes associated with recurrent IFT activity.

If you have any qestions regarding this letter, you may contact the TSP at 202-942-1460. Comments about the proposed structural regulations should be addressed in writing to: Thomas K. Emswiler, General Counsel, Federal Retirement Thhrift Investment Board, 1250 H Street, NW, Suite 200, Washington DC 20005. The agency's fax number is 202-942-1676.

Sincerley,

Gregory T LOng
Executive Director
 
just got a certified letter from our buddy Greg Long. Says as of March 31st I will not be allowed to make IFTs online. They did include 3 TSP-50 forms..lol. I be sending it back with a $50k loan request.
Sorry to hear that. Do mind telling us your trading pattern this year/month? ie how many transfers have you been making.

Thanks
 
just got a certified letter from our buddy Greg Long. Says as of March 31st I will not be allowed to make IFTs online. They did include 3 TSP-50 forms..lol. I be sending it back with a $50k loan request.

Did they say when you would be allowed to make IFTs online again?
 
just got a certified letter from our buddy Greg Long. Says as of March 31st I will not be allowed to make IFTs online. They did include 3 TSP-50 forms..lol. I be sending it back with a $50k loan request.
 
Tracey says that Barclays doesn't trade the accounts individually, but in bulk, therefore the costs of all trades are distributed across the whole fund. So it's true that if one fund is more expensive than another, it affects the whole fund. BUT:
  • Total value of L funds is lower than total value of I funds;
  • Average daily trade amount of I fund = $224M, average daily trade amount of L fund =$?M.
  • TSP found that rebalancing of L funds accounted for $16 million, while frequent trading accounted for $142 million.
Lets extrapolate that out...if the dollar value/average daily trade amount of L funds being rebalanced was the same as the I funds being rebalanced, would the cost of the L fund STILL be lower than the cost of the I fund? Or would it cost MORE to rebalance the L Funds because BGI has to maintain the mandated fund mix in each of the 5 L funds and still hit the targets for those funds? I notice that they state the average daily trade amount in the I fund, but NOT for the L fund when they compare the costs.

James, do you have that figure (L fund average daily trade amount for sept & oct) and can you do the math?:D

It still burns me that L Funds "rebalance" while we "frequent trade" when the daily IFT's were set up for us to do that in the first place!:mad:

There is no such figure.

Because there IS no such fund as the "L" funds.

"L" is simply the combinations of the G,F,C,S, and I.

the movement between the funds is not recorded as a trading fee attributatable to the L's. It's rolled into the costs for the individual fund.

In your example above, you said:

Average daily trade amount of I fund = $224M, average daily trade amount of L fund =$?M.
TSP found that rebalancing of L funds accounted for $16 million, while frequent trading accounted for $142 million.

I would say that if those numbers are real, the I would bet that that of your number of the $224 million would work out somewhere around this:

1. People placing trade orders to buy or sell accout for the $16.
2. Frequent traders account for $142 million,

That leaves $66 million unaccounted for each day. I believe the vast majoirty of that $66 million traded is the L funds rebalancing themselves.
 
Still, TSP Legislative Director Thomas Trabucco said Wednesday that while officials have heard many complaints about the costs of rebalancing the L funds, it's actually frequent traders who are overwhelming the system. In September and October, for example, when the average daily trade amount in the I Fund was $224 million, TSP found that rebalancing of L funds accounted for $16 million, while frequent trading accounted for $142 million.

No, that's not what they said.

They asked the question about how much was tied to TRADING of the L funds, not reblancing of the L funds.

TRADING of the L funds was $16 million. That means $16 million worth of people who placed a buy or sell order that day, to buy or sell their shares of the "L" fund involved. That is the only way it prints out- and is counted seperately.

On the other hand, the rebalancing is taking a few shares out of this side, and buying a few share sof that side, as the DIFFERENCE between the values of the shares changes. For example, if the I fund INCREASED by 1%, and the C fund DECREASED by 2% that day, you would end up selling a lot of shares of "C" and buying, instead, lots of shares of I, without the owner (TSPSHAREHOLDER,) who is a buy-and-holder L funder, doesn't pick up a phone or click a mouse. It's done automatically, EVERY DAY, SOME 200+ TIMES A YEAR, for him.

And remember, there are supposedly 3,000 people who IFT 3 times a month.

There are 600,000 L FUND HOLDERS who are having their money moved for them every single day.

The 16 million only counts the amount of someone activlty clicking and making a trade.


Sorry, off my soapbox now.
 
What pisses me is I chose to contribute the max to my TSP (with no matching Gov. contribution - CSRS) knowing that I had control over my money any/every trading day. I certainly could have put my money elsewhere. Now that they have my money...they tell me I only have control over it two times a month (and once back to G). This diminishes my ability to control my money by over 90%. Feels like bait & switch. I feel cheated. All TSPers loose this same control, and why... to save us each about $4.00 a year. What bullshit! I want my money back!
 
Note: Thanks Ralph, over at http://fedsmith.com -

Here is the article yesterday. Note to everyone- please go comment favorably- there are a lot of ignorant people who have commented against IFTs already. We need some counter-balance. You can post on-line comments at the end of the article. Note especially in your comments that the costs cited by TSP are one-thritieth of the costs of comparable mutual funds, and/or that the costs cited are soley because the Thrift Board sets the price at 4.p.m., rather than waiting until the following morning at 7 a.m., and that if they did that, roughly 80% of the costs of interfund transfers for the "I" would completely disappear.





+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Exposing Long-Term TSP Investors to Risks They Did Not Anticipate

By Ralph Smith
Thursday, March 13, 2008
You can have daily headlines from FedSmith.com delivered right to your desktop each business morning. The service is free and you don't get junk e-mail as the price of your subscription. Just visit our newsletter page to sign up!



The Thrift Savings Plan has been saying for some time now that it is clamping down on frequent traders who are using the TSP funds as a way to try and time the market. (See, for example, "Market Timing and Your TSP.")

Probably no one thought the Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board was kidding around but, if anyone thought it was not a serious proposal, this week's Federal Register announcement may put any doubts to rest.

In an announcement on March 10th, this notice was published in the Federal Register: "The Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board (Agency) proposes to amend its interfund transfer regulations to limit the number of interfund transfer requests to two per month. After a participant has made two interfund transfers in a calendar month, the participant may make additional interfund transfers only into the Government Securities Investment (G) Fund until the first day of the next calendar month."

Anyone wanting to comment on the proposal has until April 9th to send in their views. For those who previously sent in comments on the interim regulation, the announcement notes that those views will be considered in this phase of the process and need not be resubmitted.

The Federal Register notice outlines the philosophy of the TSP management. The recent notice emphasizes that the interfund transfer program was set up in 1988 allowing a transfer of funds twice each year during the bi-annual open season. The booklet on the TSP from that era stated "Your Plan contributions are invested for your retirement, and you should make your investment decision with this long-term goal in mind."

In 1990, the options for TSP investment were changed to allow up to four transfers per year and to eliminate the open season concept. Transfers were linked to the TSP's monthly valuation cycle as that is how the TSP funds were valued at that time.

The result was to allow a transfer in any month up to four times a year.

In 1995, the TSP again changed to allow up to 12 transfers per year. A 1998 review found that 91 percent of participants who made IFTs requested one (75 percent) or two (16 percent) during the year. 42 TSP participants requested the maximum number of 12 transfers.

By 2006, there were no limits on the number of transfers between funds and the funds had switched to a daily valuation instead of monthly for each fund. At that time, according to the TSP, a small number of participants with relatively large account balances started to focus on the I fund, probably based on the idea that the noon Eastern Time deadline for submitting an IFT request (inter-fund transfer), a participant might anticipate whether overseas markets would open up or down. And, according to the Federal Register notice, this activity has become more frequent and less random during the past year.

The result is that "when this small cohort rapidly removes funds in anticipation of short-term market losses, any losses which in fact materialize are spread over fewer remaining participants and are therefore more severe for those who maintain the long-term approach. Those who rapidly shift out secure the higher value based on the closing price for the day, while the remaining investors bear the losses when the shares are sold at he lower opening price on the following business day."

The result is that the large majority of TSP investors who are using the TSP for the purpose for which it was intended are being put at risk by the actions of a small number of active TSP traders. The large number of passive investors did not anticipate the risk of their investments being potentially damaged by those who are trying to time the market.

The TSP has decided not to allow the frequent trades and to impose an additional fee on those who are frequently trading "because it is impossible to correctly assign the exact costs to those who are making interfund transfers." The board also defends its proposal noting that the proposal to limit trades is "more accommodating than necessary for optimal rebalancing frequency and demonstrably more liberal than the policies of 40 record keepers which use the same processing system as the TSP."

Not surprisingly, the TSP proposal to limit frequent trades has attracted the ire of those who want to try and time the market. A group called TSPShareholder.org says in its press release that "While the number of TSP Participants increased from 3.68 million to 3.9 million, the actual cost of trading per TSP shareholder declined in the year ending December 31, 2007. " A spokesman for the organization also says that "We've been trying to tell the TSP Board all along that their numbers don't show a problem, and now we have the data to prove it", said Jim Pratt, a Federal Union Representative, and founder of TSPSHAREHOLDER.ORG. "Now that the data shows that costs are actually declining, it's time for the Thrift Board to rethink their efforts to restrict employee's control of their money.". (sic)

Comments on the proposal to restrict market timing in the TSP funds must be received on or before April 9, 2008 and sent to Comments may be sent to: Thomas K. Emswiler, General Counsel, Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board, 1250 H Street, NW., Washington, DC 20005.
© 2008 FedSmith Inc. All rights reserved.


Article is located at, and you can make comments at:
http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1543/
 
so let me get this straight, if you went all into C - it went down 5% one day - you switched G, you couldn't put anything back into any other fund for the rest of the month.

real fair. give me a break....

BTW, my comment to govexec isn't posted yet - I made it real clean - no snot or anything, just a few points. If there's any summary of a dozen other places I can comment....I'll answer them all.

Asia is following up the spike over here....tomorrow looks like another day to cash in:nuts:, i.e., another IFT for me.
 
I too posted a comment; I also re-allocated today - and booked some more profit - too bad its only in dollars, not gold - but I like seeing the numbers go up.

Two transfers is going to be a challenge; but better than buy-and-hold forever strategy. I sure hope the proposed new rules get tossed - but if they come to pass - I'll be combing this site for ways to invest.
 
And, everyone.....PLEASE TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND SUBMIT COMMENTS ON THIS PROPOSED RULE! James has done all the hard work for us and compiled a ton of data you can use to refute their proposal, over at www. tspshareholder.org. Take the time to go look at what he has, compose a comment letter, and fax it in. It only takes a few minutes. FRTIB has a very weak argument for imposing such harsh new restrictions on our ability to manage our TSP accounts.....tell them to keep their hands off of your retirement funds!! It costs only about $3.50 per year, per TSP member, to retain the right to have unlimited IFTs......is it worth that much to you? It is to me.

DITTO RAE! I faxed mine in 3-11-2008 and mailed the handwritten letter yesterday. Snail mail may have more impact! We want piles of letters coming in!
 
I read that rule and the thing about twice a month rebalancing being liberal compared to "all restrictions reviewed". Well, they didn't review e-trades no-cost funds. That's what I have my roth in and I can trade whenever I want. It is pretty similar in selection (or lack thereof, more appropriately termed; large stocks, tech, internationals, that sort of stuff) to the TSP. I don't have my money in what they reviewed.

And thanks for the tip on the current trading rules being extended to May. Made another 0.5% today. Sure, I coulda done better, but $1,100 a day for 2 minutes of thought and a couple of my usual checks of indicators?. That's shorter than it took to write this response. I have my down days too - but a hot streak is no time to be changing the rules. NUTZ!!!!

And Oh - one of the confirmed ways of investing semi-conservatively, if that's what they want us to do, is to average investments, and divestments, over periods of time - like 10% a day, when building to a 50% stake. Trying to pick a bottom on a specific day? When this goes thru (and as much as I'm against it I don't have much hope), I will have to do some more creative thinking on my strategies, as one of the tools in reducing risk - involving time averaged allocations over consecutive days - isn't going to be possible anymore.

NUTZ AGAIN !!!! (sorry, I get a little excited making money):p
 
Policy won't change until May at the earliest. We have until April 9 to submit comments on the proposed rule, then they have to digest all the comments and respond to them, then post the final rule in the register. So YEEHAW! Keep making that money!

And, everyone.....PLEASE TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND SUBMIT COMMENTS ON THIS PROPOSED RULE! James has done all the hard work for us and compiled a ton of data you can use to refute their proposal, over at www. tspshareholder.org. Take the time to go look at what he has, compose a comment letter, and fax it in. It only takes a few minutes. FRTIB has a very weak argument for imposing such harsh new restrictions on our ability to manage our TSP accounts.....tell them to keep their hands off of your retirement funds!! It costs only about $3.50 per year, per TSP member, to retain the right to have unlimited IFTs......is it worth that much to you? It is to me.
 
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