TSP Poker Club

Sort by newest Sort by date
Great Game!
Here are the places and Knock Out stats:
Code: 
Place
  1    att
  2    stu    ko'd by att
  3    gator  ko'd by att
  4    winter ko'd by att
  5    gata   ko'd by gator
  6    Q      ko'd by att
  7    FS     ko'd by gator
  8    k0n    ko'd by gator
 
Well rats! KO'd again, and I didn't even get to play a single hand this time. clueless me needs some help unnerstandin that one. sorry gang, good intentions obviously since I had registered. Unfortunately a 13 hour day interfered, 5 hours of which were spent on the road in remote country driving back and forth from an all day interagency meeting. nobody to share the driving either, just lil ol me.

Beautiful day tho, greening high-mountain meadows, a little snow still on the mountain tops at elevations higher than the backcountry highway, quite cool but sunny and no wind, unlike the weekend around here.
 
Caution. Long story ahead. :D

Many years ago, more than 20, I played a lot of poker and I read every book I could find, and back then there was not a lot available so if you had some knowledge, you could really have some success. The game was limit hold’em then. The only no limit was during tournament play.

Anyway, I watched a video of David Sklansky back then and in an interview he said he started playing in college at the Warton School and this group of players used to discuss every hand after it was played. Doing this, he said several of them got to be very good players. That was probably the 60’s or 70’s when very little was published on the game.

Fast forward to the 90’s and I playing in casinos but I also started to have some games at my house with the idea of doing the same thing; discussing the play to try to become better. It turned out the people at the games were not interested in that. They only cared about each hand and who won it.

Back then I playing very regularly in the closest casino and in Vegas, almost exclusively limit holdem, and I had success.

The game really started to change after Chris Moneymaker won the World Series of Poker in 2003, an average guy who was not a professional, and poker exploded on the national scene. Ironically or possibly related, shortly after that I started to get burned out and stopped playing as regularly as its popularity increased.

At that time I was still a gov’t employee and had started TSP Talk (late 2003) and also my wife and I bought a commercial building and started an art gallery, so I was swamped and that may have had something to do with it, but I also didn’t adapt to no limit cash games very well, or I didn’t like the swings. Players also got much better as more and more books and online help was available. Whatever it was, my playing time decreased dramatically.

I never liked to play the free games (home or online) because people didn’t play the same since there was nothing to lose. Now, with the setup you guys have come up with, there is much more competition and I have enjoyed it, but I also see that there is an opportunity for us to do what Sklansky and his friends did, and that is to help each other improve our games by discussing the hands as we play (or after here in the forum).

I am still a little burned out on poker and have played much more blackjack than poker in the casinos in recent years, but now I have gotten tired of worrying about getting kicked out for counting cards. That’s one of the reasons I turned to poker 20+ years ago. Good poker players don’t get kicked out of casinos. :)

Playing for play money and standings is fun, but there are obviously good players in this group and I think we can get something more out of it.

Anyway, that’s all. Just wondering what you thought of it.
 
alevin said:
Well rats! KO'd again, and I didn't even get to play a single hand this time. clueless me needs some help unnerstandin that one. sorry gang, good intentions obviously since I had registered. Unfortunately a 13 hour day interfered, 5 hours of which were spent on the road in remote country driving back and forth from an all day interagency meeting. nobody to share the driving either, just lil ol me.

Beautiful day tho, greening high-mountain meadows, a little snow still on the mountain tops at elevations higher than the backcountry highway, quite cool but sunny and no wind, unlike the weekend around here.
Click to expand...

When you sit out, your chips still sit in handing out antes.
 
k0nkuzh0n said:
stats have been updated: https://goo.gl/cUv6Yj
Click to expand...
IMAGE:
HTHOQL.png
 
I like the idea Tom. Burro is probably the most generous in the group when it comes to showing cards.

Last night I wanted to call your bet so bad. I knew I was beat and the odds were not good, but there was an opportunity for a royal flush. I didn't really care about the chips at that point, but ultimately wanting to continue playing overruled playing the lottery. :laugh:

When I was in high school, and to a lesser degree in college, we would have $5 or $10 buyin tournaments ever so often and would get 15-20 people, typically with 1 re-buyin within the first hour or so. Most were very generous when it came to showing cards, or flipping over the remaining cards even though the hand was over.
 
k0nkuzh0n said:
Last night I wanted to call your bet so bad. I knew I was beat and the odds were not good, but there was an opportunity for a royal flush. I didn't really care about the chips at that point, but ultimately wanting to continue playing overruled playing the lottery. :laugh:
Click to expand...
I had a full house in that hand (flopped a set of Jacks and the turn paired the A). I figured you could have a flush draw and might call, but I was actually thinking you had an Ace (for trip A's) and figured you'd have to call that. That's why I tried to put you all in, but you made a good fold.
 
I had the 4th Jack, but it wasn't a heart. And I knew a pair of Jacks was no good with 2 aces and a king on the board.

tsptalk said:
I had a full house in that hand (flopped a set of Jacks and the turn paired the A). I figured you could have a flush draw and might call, but I was actually thinking you had an Ace (for trip A's) and figured you'd have to call that. That's why I tried to put you all in, but you made a good fold.
Click to expand...
 
tsptalk said:
...but I also see that there is an opportunity for us to do what Sklansky and his friends did, and that is to help each other improve our games by discussing the hands as we play (or after here in the forum).

Playing for play money and standings is fun, but there are obviously good players in this group and I think we can get something more out of it.

Anyway, that’s all. Just wondering what you thought of it.
Click to expand...

that is a complex proposal for several reasons which i am sure most of the tsptalk poker club players are already aware of. i like the idea and don't really have any concerns about sharing information about cards and play, as long as it is done in a public way that does not give advantage to any particular players or affect table play 'in the moment'.

whether i am successful at that is a whole 'nother story on which i am sure there is a wide range of opinion.

that being said, there are a number of reasons (and the prevailing wisdom is) to never show any card somebody didn't have to pay for, because it can betray what hands and how you play them to an accomplished player. but i think with modern poker skins and tracking software anybody can gather just about any information they want on you from how often defending blinds to what percentage of flops seen to how often bet/fold to a bet through to percentage of showdowns won. so i don't think the good player can 'outsmart' the average player with software anymore except in a few key areas that are qualitative not quantitative.

so i don't have any problem showing cards or discussing them at times, when it suits me to reveal that information for one reason or the other.

that being said, yes i am generous at revealing what i hold more than most. let's just say i do it on purpose, mainly to strike fear into the heart of my opponents, or to cause them to think "that dumbazz will go allin with anything", or "crap that corksoaker is so lucky always getting pocket queens".

what interests me more than "what were your cards" is the information that can be gleaned from that such as "what were you doing in that situation with those cards and how/why did you play it that way"? and more importantly, "how can i utilize that knowledge against you to my advantage".
 
more along the lines of revealing cards or play...

i don't think the big hands, the AA vs. KK or the slow masterful "i have a boat and am going to suck you along drawing to your straight until you hit it and then crush your hopes and dreams for all to see" hands come along that often and are even less pivotal in any given game. i think the margin lies (the money is made) with the hands along the 60/40 split matchups and before the flop when the money goes in. you better get your money in good those hands consistently or you will consistently lose at poker.

terminology: "coin flip" to me at least is those hands where one is favored over the other about 55/45 or less. and yes, you better get used to letting it all go on these if you are going to be successful at late game tournament play. but no matter what, you will win these hands about half the time.

the real margin lies with the 60/40 hands, but don't kid yourself, on any given hand you could win or you could lose. and over ten hands you could equally win or lose. even over a hundred 60/40 hands you may be at about a 50/50 split. but if you are playing correctly, that is getting your money in good in the proper situations consistently over time, then over 1,000 and certainly by 10,000 hands your win rate should approach 60/40. that is money right there. that is 2 bets over ten that you come out ahead. and that makes for a poker player that can pay his bills instead of borrowing his next stake. i have some experience at both of those endeavors.

and when you lose the 60 split to a 40 hand, you better develop a thick skin and a short memory, because it happens. a lot. (hint: about 40% of the time).
 
my favorite hand to illustrate the 60/40 split concept is the suited Ace-Eight vs. an unsuited King-Jack. if you don't know yet, there are tons of online hand calculators where you can type in what you had, what your opponent had, and what cards came after until the hand ended and it will show you odds along the way. this hand by the way, is the hand that basically ended my chances of winning the tournament and taking tom out last night when we were heads up and i had a slight chip lead. for the record, i will take this bet in this situation every time, and expect to win 6 times out of ten, and i will not feel bad about it a bit the on-average four times i lose. tom i'm sure has his own take on it and may want to share but i will tell you why i played it, and how.

View attachment 38057

also it should be noted that there is other reasons to recognize this hand, beyond the 60/40 critical split. one of them is the table chatter it enables if you lose (to appear steamed or to steam your opponent) when the hit the long odds.

"nice king (pause) jack off" or "oh, you like jack king off, i bet you're good at it".

remember, there is more to poker than the cards.
 
But keep in mind that those calculators fail to factor in betting action.

Odds say something about your hand. How the villain bets says something about their hand.
 
first, it is important to realize that despite how i got there, we were near the end of the tournament when the blinds will force things to happen with increasing urgency, i probably do not want a long drawn out battle with a methodical and correct and smart player like tom, and i had the chip lead so i can absorb a one hand loss whereas the same loss takes him out of the tournament which is an additional worry for my opponent, for all the marbles. also, i had to judge what hand or range of hands he would bet on or call to. i put that range in that situation at 10-queen through jack-king offsuit. any other hand i believed in that situation in that game, he would approach differently.

so i am at the 60/40 window i look for and it is time. for me? i have an overcard the ace which can shut down any pair of his if it hits. i have a flush draw to back that up. and he has only 6 cards at this point (the other 3 jacks and 3 kings) that can improve his hand because i am winning going in, i do not need additional cards - just for his few not to hit (or for him to not pick up a straight draw which dilutes my holdings - but remember i already have a flush draw). 60/40. good deal, take it every time.

why allin preflop then? why not see what 3 cards come on the flop? because if either one of us hits it changes the calculations for both of us and i like the way this will turn out for me most of the time. so it is time to race, let 'er rip tater chip.

if you play a lot, the odds are already set in your head before you see the cards, they just confirm what you are up against when the dealer gives you your two and you see your opponent's action/reaction. the decision is almost instantaneous if you have a defined strategery you play by. the outcome is out of your hands this time, but totally under your control if played consistently over the long run.

because we are among friends and because it was near the end where my now decrepit chip stack after the loss holds no threat to my opponent, i passed on the 'nice king, jack off' comment and instead said 'nh' and then 'it happens' after he acknowledged 'suck out'. that does not bother me a bit. i got to that almost winning situation by sucking out. fair is fair. that's poker.

on a side note... i do not use poker tracking or odds software realtime. because i know the basic situations and odds with at least a 90% confidence level and instead use my mental resources to 'feel', to identify if he is likely on a king jack off or in a chip/blind situation where he must soon push, or if he is tilted or if his wife is nagging or if he just plain don't care. you don't really need to calculate the odds down to 58.15% vs. 41.67% or whatever, because if you are playing right your finishes will settle out at about 60/40. some folks like knowing the exact probabilities though, and good for them. there are many ways to skin a cat.
 
jpcavin said:
Why does the cat always get skinned? :worried:
Click to expand...

probably because the cat has not seen enough hands.

you have divorce yourself from the concept of 'right and wrong' and even the concept of 'money'.

the minute you traded your 'money' for little clay objects they are no longer money, they are markers. markers of skill or luck. you sit down at the table broke. your job is to accumulate as many of those chips into your stack, be in a position to stand up and take them to the casino cage, and trade them back in for 'money'. until that point, you are broke, you have no money, only chips and skill and luck.

also it should be noted that not only do you have to make it to the cage with chips to get your money, but sometimes you got to fight to get out the door of the 'the house' and get even luckier to make it all the way home or to the bank to be able to call that win 'your money' again.

but mainly to answer your question, you have not seen enough hands yet, padwan. but you will. and you will be dangerous when you do.

but even then i will confidently tell you the same thing i told tom last night and wade into the fray with a smile on my face... "i'm afraid this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me". because i intend to walk into that situation a 60/40 favorite. that is my margin.
 
burrocrat said:
probably because the cat has not seen enough hands.

you have divorce yourself from the concept of 'right and wrong' and even the concept of 'money'.

the minute you traded your 'money' for little clay objects they are no longer money, they are markers. markers of skill or luck. you sit down at the table broke. your job is to accumulate as many of those chips into your stack, be in a position to stand up and take them to the casino cage, and trade them back in for 'money'. until that point, you are broke, you have no money, only chips and skill and luck.

also it should be noted that not only do you have to make it to the cage with chips to get your money, but sometimes you got to fight to get out the door of the 'the house' and get even luckier to make it all the way home or to the bank to be able to call that win 'your money' again.

but mainly to answer your question, you have not seen enough hands yet, padwan. but you will. and you will be dangerous when you do.

but even then i will confidently tell you the same thing i told tom last night and wade into the fray with a smile on my face... "i'm afraid this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me". because i intend to walk into that situation a 60/40 favorite. that is my margin.
Click to expand...

Padwan? Do you see a Padwan here? I don't think so. :D

 
another thing to consider in poker is that some folks live for the rush, they cannot resist it. all in! they don't even care if they win or lose any time, they already divorced themselves from their money and only live to see the next drop or rise or the roller coaster. it can be addicting and gratifying in way not often recognized or understood.

your job is to spot those folks and just for fun give them a nice ride but not care a whit when they crash. wheee!

they were going to lose it all anyways, might as well be to you. winning. a good poker player has a lot in common with a good drug dealer. shoot it up buttercup, you're a star.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

tsptalk
  • Article Article
TSP Talk - Crazy market action - Did the TSP process transactions on Friday?
Replies
0
Views
1K
tsptalk
tsptalk
tsptalk
NFL Survivor Contest For 2021
2
Replies
21
Views
11K
tsptalk
tsptalk
tsptalk
Nasa1974 Hall of Fame!! 10000 posts!
Replies
5
Views
3K
ravensfan
ravensfan
Bullitt
MLB Releases Outline Plan to Re-Open
Replies
1
Views
4K
Bullitt
Bullitt
tsptalk
  • Article Article
TSP Talk: Bulls taking charge, despite the smoke and mirrors
Replies
0
Views
665
tsptalk
tsptalk
Back
Top