TSP board to limit interfund transfers

i got home today from work and the legislator who works for the american postal workers left me two messages that said he wants to talk to me about my question about the employees thrift advisory counsel--i can't call him from work and i guess i will have to take my son cell phone but i will get hold of him some how tomorrow--to much O.T DON'T FORGET TO CALL OR FAX , his phone number is (202) 842-4210 and his fax number is (202) 682-2528 his name is steve a. albanese
 
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I guess this info has already been published but in case there are others out there like me that thought there was a plan by TSP board members for a Thrift Board meeting in December to bring up the issue of Thrift IFT limits, that is not going to happen. It has already happened according to this article in the Washingtonpost dated 11/20/2007.

Already a done deal - meeting was on 11/19/2007. No minutes on the frtb web site. What happened to our freedom to know what real evidence they are using except some overblown statements that don't add up?

==article begins here=======================

Thrift Savings Plan Approves Trading Restrictions
from: http://www.washingpost.com (may need to register to view this)

By Stephen Barr
Tuesday, November 20, 2007; Page D04

Alarmed by a surge in stock and bond trading by a small group of government employees, the board that oversees the Thrift Savings Plan voted yesterday for a crackdown on participants who try to beat the market by jumping in and out of the plan every few days.

The day traders or market timers, as these employees are popularly called, have been driving up the plan's operating costs for all TSP participants, plan officials said.

Out of a plan with more than 3.8 million members, fewer than 3,000 government employees are responsible for much of the increased trading volume, the officials said.

"It is real," Gregory T. Long, executive director of the Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board, said. "A small group of people are causing damage to hundreds of thousands who don't do this."

The TSP is a 401(k)-type retirement savings program for civil service, postal and military personnel. It features three stock index funds, a bond index fund, and a U.S. Treasury securities fund. The index funds essentially produce returns that track domestic and international market trends. The plan also offers "life-cycle funds," targeted for retirement purposes, that are a mix of the index funds and the government securities fund.

Congress designed the 20-year-old plan on the theory that employees would buy and hold stocks and bonds for the long term, building a nest egg for retirement. The plan began providing daily, rather than monthly, valuation of participant accounts in 2003, when officials upgraded the TSP's record-keeping system.

The switch to daily valuation has made it much easier for some federal employees to use the TSP as a buy-and-sell stock machine, apparently in hopes of reaping bigger returns.

In the change to the daily system, the TSP did not place a limit on the number of transfers among its funds. In contrast, officials noted yesterday, most mutual funds restrict the number of trades their members can make each year. Some mutual fund companies also charge redemption fees for shares held less than 30, 60 or 90 days.

Officials said trading volume in stock and bond funds in the TSP has grown substantially since 2005 and has expanded disproportionately to market value. More large trades also are taking place, they said.

For example, on Oct. 19, $371 million of the plan's assets were transferred into an international stock fund. Three business days later, on Oct. 24, $391 million was transferred out. Officials said 2,018 participants who sold their international stock on the 24th had purchased the stock on the 19th.

Of that group, 323 were trading $250,000 or more. During the previous 60 days, these 323 traders had made 5,804 exchanges in the international fund worth $1.9 billion, the TSP officials said.

The daily trading, and the size of the trades, have led to higher broker fees and transaction costs, especially in the international fund, where it's more difficult for the TSP's investment manager to match buy and sell orders, a study by the TSP staff found.

Thrift Savings Plan Approves Trading Restrictions

Citing its duty to administer the TSP at the lowest reasonable cost, the thrift board voted to adopt trading restrictions for all of the plan's funds.

The policy limits participants to two inter-fund transfers per month. Participants who think they have made an investment mistake would be allowed an additional transfer into the plan's risk-free government's securities fund.

Tracey A. Ray, the TSP's chief investment officer, said the policy change would be announced in February and that the plan's computers would be reprogrammed by March or April to enforce the new policy.

In the interim, Ray was granted permission by the board to identify the 2,000 to 3,000 frequent traders and to ask them to stop. If they do not, they will be allowed to buy and sell only through the mail until the new, automated curbs take effect. Because it will be difficult for the traders to know when their mail order is delivered, they are likely to be less eager to try to take advantage of market swings.

The TSP began studying trading patterns during the summer, and officials said the analysis was not intended to determine whether the market timers were making or losing money but to determine whether their trading had increased commissions paid to brokers, transfer taxes and other transaction costs.

The study focused on the TSP's international index fund, the most costly fund to administer because of the lag time in buying and selling in overseas markets. The study found that 70 to 80 percent of the daily trading volume came from participants making a "round trip" -- selling their stocks after having purchased them within the past 60 days.

Long said yesterday that frequent traders "won't be happy" to see curbs imposed on trading. "They will complain loudly, but our job is to take care of all participants," he said.

Stephen Barr's e-mail address isbarrs@washpost.com.
 
Ayla, you need to read this whole thread back to 11/19/07. This is NOT a done deal, the proposed changes have to be posted in the federal register and go through the 60-day public comment period before they can take effect. That's why they can't go into effect until March-April...it really has little to do with "software restrictions."


Right, it's NOT A DONE DEAL! In addition to the comment period coming up once the Federal Register notice is posted, there is a very important meeting coming up between FRTIB (the board that proposed these new IFT limits) and ETAC (the Employee Thrift Advisory Council, a 15-member group that advises FRTIB on actions affecting the TSP). Please go back and read earlier posts in this (and other) threads on this topic about who the 15 members of ETAC are, and how to contact them. The best info. we have is that the meeting between FRTIB and ETAC will occur sometime in early- or mid-December, so it is CRITICAL that ETAC hear from as many of us as possible between now and then. I have seen some comments from ETAC members just recently indicating that they do not think this is a done deal, and they do intend to seek alternative solutions to the problem, if there even is a problem.
 
Were f%$ked!:mad:

This is nothing, new guys. It's the Nov. 6th memo from Tracey Ray to Greg Long that started this whole thing. Yes, it shows that the I fund has experienced more frequent trading volume recently than the other TSP funds, resulting in slightly higher expenses for the I fund. What she fails to mention in this memo is that, overall, expenses for all of the TSP in 2006 was just 2 BASIS POINTS, which is 8 basis points less than just 3 years ago (2003). And, she also fails to mention that surging assets in the TSP ($6 billion increase in just one month this fall) are driving down overall expenses even further. All of this information is in the FRTIB meeting minutes from Sept. and Oct. of this year. So, don't be misled by the alarmist tone of this memo from Tracey Ray........we need to keep the spotlight on the bigger picture here, which is that there is NO BIG INCREASE in overall TSP expenses recently, and expenses may actually be decreasing to the surging asset base in TSP. 2 basis points is a very, very low expense ratio...........remember that the expense ratio for the average mutual fund is 75 basis points!!
 
I fund's expenses are 6 basis points, down from 8 basis points two years ago.

Most common mutal funds cost 60 to 75 basis points.

The costs cited are still WAY below anything else out there.
 
...And, she also fails to mention that surging assets in the TSP ($6 billion increase in just one month this fall) are driving down overall expenses even further.


People- you need to go read the October meeting minutes.

http://www.frtib.gov/FOIA/minutes-board-member-meetings_2007Oct.pdf

In September, the value of all TSP funds ROSE by over $6 BILLION dollars.

Employees only contributed $1.6 BILLION dollars.

Where did the extra $4.4 BILLION dollars come from? FROM TRADING, and from the increase in value of securities in general. I WISH we could get a better breakout of how much of that was TRADING. Remember, that in September, Ebb was on a roll, and every Ebb move was hitting on every cylinder.

I would LOVE to be able to say that the "3,000: gained a BILLION dollars of assets, for the petty cost of only a half-basis point (one month of the 6 basis points per year) in costs.
 
People- you need to go read the October meeting minutes.

http://www.frtib.gov/FOIA/minutes-board-member-meetings_2007Oct.pdf

In September, the value of all TSP funds ROSE by over $6 BILLION dollars.

Employees only contributed $1.6 BILLION dollars.

Where did the extra $4.4 BILLION dollars come from? FROM TRADING, and from the increase in value of securities in general. I WISH we could get a better breakout of how much of that was TRADING. Remember, that in September, Ebb was on a roll, and every Ebb move was hitting on every cylinder.

I would LOVE to be able to say that the "3,000: gained a BILLION dollars of assets, for the petty cost of only a half-basis point (one month of the 6 basis points per year) in costs.

Folks, if you doubt what James and I are saying... concerning the October FRTIB meeting minutes:

"The October FRTIB meeting minutes continue to report that thru
September, TSP expenses are extremely low, at ONE basis point. They also
go on to explain that these expenses are GROSS not NET. That is, they
don't include monies taken in from loans or abandoned accounts. When
those are included, the expenses are eliminated. So where are the
excessive trading expenses that they want to eliminate? Where is the
problem?"
______________________________________________________________

The bottom line is that this hysteria over increasing trading expenses due to frequent trading, is a lot of hype that is not supported by the facts!! Write to your union rep on the ETAC and tell them to bring up this information when they meet with FRTIB in mid-December. We don't need new restrictions based on misleading information put forth by Tracey Ray and the FRTIB!
 
Note:

Today, the TSP site put up some new FAQ's in an effort to make people think they are right. I challenge everyone to go over there, see what they have printed, and then let's collaborate on an appropriate counter-position, knocking down their data, fact by fact.

Here is the link:

http://tsp.gov/faq/faq14.html

We're going to go over to the "sandbox" to collaborate on what they have said here, and pick the facts out that we have a good leg to challenge.
 
Did you notice they are addressing almost all of our arguments. This is giving them a lot of time to work up an answer to our complaints. I wonder how many lawyers they have working on this one? I also wonder who is paying for those lawyers? We need an expert of how the trading in the TSP actually takes place. I just really don't believe these people. They complained about one Member trading, oh what was it, I think $350,000 to the "I" one day and out on the next, SO WHAT?:nuts:
 
Did you notice they are addressing almost all of our arguments. This is giving them a lot of time to work up an answer to our complaints. QUOTE]

I was wondering if Ms. Ray hasn't popped in here, in cognito, promoting the buy and hold mentality, and we got a little rough with her.
 
Did you notice they are addressing almost all of our arguments. This is giving them a lot of time to work up an answer to our complaints. QUOTE]

I was wondering if Ms. Ray hasn't popped in here, in cognito, promoting the buy and hold mentality, and we got a little rough with her.

Yes, they are here. It is a open message board that anyone can read. You found it, so did they and you can bet they ARE reading it. :)
 
Note:

Today, the TSP site put up some new FAQ's in an effort to make people think they are right. I challenge everyone to go over there, see what they have printed, and then let's collaborate on an appropriate counter-position, knocking down their data, fact by fact.

Here is the link:

http://tsp.gov/faq/faq14.html

We're going to go over to the "sandbox" to collaborate on what they have said here, and pick the facts out that we have a good leg to challenge.

I just reviewed the FAQ's, and I think they are playing games with the numbers. I'm not an accountant, though, and we need someone with that kind of background to go through this and pick apart their arguments. For example, here is one question and answer in their FAQ sheet:
____________________________________________________________

Q8. The TSP's expense ratio was only 3 basis points (.03%) in 2006. Why does the TSP need to limit trading when expenses are already low?

A. Transaction costs are investment expenses that reduce investment income before deductions for administrative expenses and are not included in the administrative expense ratio. (See the Thrift Savings Plan Statement of Changes in Net Assets Available for Plan Benefits portion of the Plan’s financial statement.) Transaction costs of $13.8 million reduced the I Fund return by 8 basis points (or .08%) in 2006; net administrative expenses only reduced participants’ returns by 3 basis points (.03%) in 2006.
Frequent trading also increases the cash the investment manager must hold to meet redemptions, which leads to a greater chance of differences in performance from the indexes tracked by the funds. It is the goal of the TSP to keep this "tracking error" as low as possible since the funds are designed to mimic their respective indexes.
______________________________________________________________

This does not make sense to me. It seems to me that transactions costs must be part of the overall administrative expense ratio. If they weren't, mutual funds could charge investors all sorts of "transaction costs", while quoting a low administrative expense ratio, to attract more investors. I doubt that the SEC would permit that. If you read the FRTIB meeting minutes from Sept, Oct, and previous months, the only thing they normally discuss is the admin. expense ratio...i.e., what is the trend in number of basis points for managing the TSP. So, if there are all these additional "transaction costs" that are suddenly so important to them, why have we heard nothing about it until now? They say in response to another question that "99% of TSP members" will not be affected by the new IFT restrictions. If that is true (and I don't doubt that it is, since most folks I know pay very little attention to their TSP accounts), then what they are saying is that frequent trading by 1% of TSP members is causing a huge problem!. That is simply not plausible, and their numbers don't prove their case. The trend in basis points is down, folks.....currently ONE BASIS POINT for managing TSP as a whole (Oct. 07 meeting minutes).
 
Not that I have an informed clue, but it seems to me that this "tracking error" is related to when the price is set and the guess as to what tomorrow will bring on the part of the managers. Wouldn't that "guess" be more accurate with a later timed set price and therefore reduce said "tracking error".

Frequent trading also increases the cash the investment manager must hold to meet redemptions, which leads to a greater chance of differences in performance from the indexes tracked by the funds. It is the goal of the TSP to keep this "tracking error" as low as possible since the funds are designed to mimic their respective indexes.

Or is it simply that we've become more adept at determining market changes than in the past thanks to instantaneous information from the internet as well as other sources and it has upset Barclay's apple cart? When market information is easily available to "the masses", would that not increase trading?

And, what kind of float does Barclays have anyway. Everyone in banking and financials has a float with the funds they manage.
 
Not that I have an informed clue, but it seems to me that this "tracking error" is related to when the price is set and the guess as to what tomorrow will bring on the part of the managers. Wouldn't that "guess" be more accurate with a later timed set price and therefore reduce said "tracking error".



Or is it simply that we've become more adept at determining market changes than in the past thanks to instantaneous information from the internet as well as other sources and it has upset Barclay's apple cart? When market information is easily available to "the masses", would that not increase trading?

And, what kind of float does Barclays have anyway. Everyone in banking and financials has a float with the funds they manage.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "float". I do know that BGI, Barclay Global Investments, has "recently raised this target from $750 million to $950 million to accommodate our increased trading volume."

"Stock and bond trades settle 3 days after the trade date. That is when the money actually changes hands. Because TSP participants receive proceeds the nest day, (as per contract with BGI), the investment manager must develop a way to meet those obligation. Managers use a combination of cash and futures (which settle next day) to provide the necessary liquidity. But a fund manager cannot hold a large amount of cash because it will cause the performance of the fund to diverge from that of the index. ................................ In order to prevent that drag on performance , BGI keeps the cash invested in futures contracts. There is no EAFE contract that can mirror the performance of the index ( an EAFE futures contract does trade, but it is relatively new and does not have the volume nor the liquidity that BGI needs for the I Fund), so BGI purchases a basket of futures from many different countries. This basket does not replicate the performance of the EAFE index as closely as the S&P 500 futures track the S&P 500 index, therefore "tracking error" in the I Fund becomes more likely. Tracking error is the amount that performance of the fund differs from the performance of the index. BGI estimates that performance of the futures basket can deviate from EAFE performance by 1.5%. Maintaining this large cash/futures pool to meet participant redemption requests increases the likelihood that I fund performance will differ from the EAFE Index performance."

Quotes from November "Frequent Trading" report.

From what I read, the problem is "Fair Valuation" and "market impact". Improve the procedure for settling trades and leave the limiting of IFT alone.
 
Note:

We've opened the TSP Shareholder's Organization, as a central place to fight back through "think tank" and political lobbying.

Visit http://www.TSPSHAREHOLDER.ORG for more information. Several of us here in TSP TALK are the base members, and we're looking for all the help we can get.

Thanks
 
JAMES, I been interviewed by the gov.exec.com and putting comments articles. I been writting to all the Fed Unions and Retirement Associations.
I would like to joint to you and rest in the fight. IF YOU THINK ANY OF THE ABOVE (GOING TO THE MEDIA, THE FED UNIONS, RET ASSOCIATIONS) IS A GOOD IDEA PERHAPS THE REST OF US MAY DO THE SAME....

WOULD YOU PLEASE GUIDE ME ABOUT THE BEST WAY TO PUT MY ENERGY. THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR THE CAUSE ! ! ! SINCERELY :)

Note:

We've opened the TSP Shareholder's Organization, as a central place to fight back through "think tank" and political lobbying.

Visit http://www.TSPSHAREHOLDER.ORG for more information. Several of us here in TSP TALK are the base members, and we're looking for all the help we can get.

Thanks
 
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