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My Hands Are Tied
- Thread starter tsptalk
- Start date
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Thanks again for all of the feedback. I guess the reason I cringe at the thought of asking for a fee is that I will come across as just another pay site, which I don't want to be. A new person may come on the site and assume it's another one of those sites making outrageous claims. The site has been free for a year so most of you know that's not what this site is or, what I'm about. You justget straight forward info, comments, suggestions and sometimes correct answers.
Maybe someone wants to hear that I can make them 20 or 30% a year, every year,but anyone who has invested for any length of time knows that is just unrealistic. The question is, will people keep coming if there is a fee? I guess the best way to handle that is to offer free trials and let them see what it's all about, as you all have seen over the last year.
Thanks again!!
Tom
Thanks again for all of the feedback. I guess the reason I cringe at the thought of asking for a fee is that I will come across as just another pay site, which I don't want to be. A new person may come on the site and assume it's another one of those sites making outrageous claims. The site has been free for a year so most of you know that's not what this site is or, what I'm about. You justget straight forward info, comments, suggestions and sometimes correct answers.
Maybe someone wants to hear that I can make them 20 or 30% a year, every year,but anyone who has invested for any length of time knows that is just unrealistic. The question is, will people keep coming if there is a fee? I guess the best way to handle that is to offer free trials and let them see what it's all about, as you all have seen over the last year.
Thanks again!!
Tom
FundSurfer
Well-known member
imported post
Reading all the post, I guess I realized I'm out of the norm. I'm not on the e-mail list. I come to the message board primarily. I'm also not willing to pay anything to be a member of just a message board. Why? Because the traffic generated will generate revenue. I ran a message board for several years and just as Tom has said, just a few ads will pay the board rent. I'll also add that you Tom should investigate some other ad options that can be more profitable than google.
Now as to Toms market comments, I agree that if Tom is spending a bunch of time producing them and you are reading them and following his moves (Tom: I think this is the key) then compensation is in order. Personally, I don't follow Tom's moves. I do read Tom's comments occasionally, but actually look at other sites for market info as well. $5 a month is $60 a year. I think this would be reasonable for the e-mail service.
Now Tom, I will start paying for your moves when you consistantly beat the market in a little safer manner. Right now you have been moving more like a day trader. I realize that you are trying to beat the market and come back from losses in July, but I think it has made you a little reckless. I also realize that you have been warning people that you are getting really risky and I'm glad that you have.
Bottom line: I appreciate the message board (and have donated) but wouldn't pay for the e-mail/daily update. You could easily change my mind when we go through some rougher water and I see your insite paying dividends.
Reading all the post, I guess I realized I'm out of the norm. I'm not on the e-mail list. I come to the message board primarily. I'm also not willing to pay anything to be a member of just a message board. Why? Because the traffic generated will generate revenue. I ran a message board for several years and just as Tom has said, just a few ads will pay the board rent. I'll also add that you Tom should investigate some other ad options that can be more profitable than google.
Now as to Toms market comments, I agree that if Tom is spending a bunch of time producing them and you are reading them and following his moves (Tom: I think this is the key) then compensation is in order. Personally, I don't follow Tom's moves. I do read Tom's comments occasionally, but actually look at other sites for market info as well. $5 a month is $60 a year. I think this would be reasonable for the e-mail service.
Now Tom, I will start paying for your moves when you consistantly beat the market in a little safer manner. Right now you have been moving more like a day trader. I realize that you are trying to beat the market and come back from losses in July, but I think it has made you a little reckless. I also realize that you have been warning people that you are getting really risky and I'm glad that you have.
Bottom line: I appreciate the message board (and have donated) but wouldn't pay for the e-mail/daily update. You could easily change my mind when we go through some rougher water and I see your insite paying dividends.
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My two cents:
I agree with some ofFundsurfer's points. I, too,don't come here for anybody's info or recommendations,just to 'talk' TSP. I don't put anything intoany 'system' oranalysis.I would never pay for a message board, so I am not a pay candidate and definitely won't be here "when" it goes pay, because I can talk tsp on any of a numberof free message boards. BUT, this site's future lies in the pay market.As a web designer myself, I have some suggestions for Tom:
It has been three hours since I last posted to my account talk and I still can't see my message.Isaw the usual "error" message and after checking, I saw I had posted but could stillnot see my message. Not good. I don't mind, but ifa pay site had that kind oflag, I'd want my money back. Get that fixed.
This site has awakened a lot of people. Tom, they will come here for your advice. Sell it. It might make more than your TSP account times ten eventually. BUT, let it run free until you get a few more free subscribers. THEN make it a pay site. I'd go until I got 25,000 subscribers, and you know 2/3 of themwould pay.
You might lose a little money at first waiting, but you always bet on the come. (craps term) Get some more lemmings hooked and it will pay you in multiples more in the future.
Good luck Tom. You havebuilt it and they will come. I am proud to say I was here somewhere close to the beginning.
My two cents:
I agree with some ofFundsurfer's points. I, too,don't come here for anybody's info or recommendations,just to 'talk' TSP. I don't put anything intoany 'system' oranalysis.I would never pay for a message board, so I am not a pay candidate and definitely won't be here "when" it goes pay, because I can talk tsp on any of a numberof free message boards. BUT, this site's future lies in the pay market.As a web designer myself, I have some suggestions for Tom:
It has been three hours since I last posted to my account talk and I still can't see my message.Isaw the usual "error" message and after checking, I saw I had posted but could stillnot see my message. Not good. I don't mind, but ifa pay site had that kind oflag, I'd want my money back. Get that fixed.
This site has awakened a lot of people. Tom, they will come here for your advice. Sell it. It might make more than your TSP account times ten eventually. BUT, let it run free until you get a few more free subscribers. THEN make it a pay site. I'd go until I got 25,000 subscribers, and you know 2/3 of themwould pay.
You might lose a little money at first waiting, but you always bet on the come. (craps term) Get some more lemmings hooked and it will pay you in multiples more in the future.
Good luck Tom. You havebuilt it and they will come. I am proud to say I was here somewhere close to the beginning.
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It would seem rather counter productive of me to lose the folks that don't particulary need the site because they have enough investment knowledge. FundSurfer's contributionsandtallying of those account returns which has saved me a bunch of time. Namor doesn't really add any market insight but it has been entertaining and educational to watch his extremely aggressive approach to managing his TSP account. I may have to rethink how it will work.
I agree a message board shouldprobably be one of thefree services. The more the merrier for sure. The problem would be of people sharing information that others are paying for. I'm not sure if some forums can be members only but I'll research it.
One thing I will add is that I would be surprised if someone who isa regular decided not to stick around because of a $5 a month fee. I figure at $1.56 a cup, I spend about $40 to $50 a month on coffee each month.
OK, that's not a great investment and Suzi Orman would probably smack me, but you know what I mean.
It would seem rather counter productive of me to lose the folks that don't particulary need the site because they have enough investment knowledge. FundSurfer's contributionsandtallying of those account returns which has saved me a bunch of time. Namor doesn't really add any market insight but it has been entertaining and educational to watch his extremely aggressive approach to managing his TSP account. I may have to rethink how it will work.
I agree a message board shouldprobably be one of thefree services. The more the merrier for sure. The problem would be of people sharing information that others are paying for. I'm not sure if some forums can be members only but I'll research it.
One thing I will add is that I would be surprised if someone who isa regular decided not to stick around because of a $5 a month fee. I figure at $1.56 a cup, I spend about $40 to $50 a month on coffee each month.
OK, that's not a great investment and Suzi Orman would probably smack me, but you know what I mean. imported post
Tom, I'm with you. You deserve to be reimbursed to the extent possible for your analysis and the cost of doing business and anyone who visits your site and acts on the information you provide to us is profiting. I certainly have. :^
Count me in and name your price.
Happy New Year and again, many, many thanks.
Don in Germany
U.S. Forces
Tom, I'm with you. You deserve to be reimbursed to the extent possible for your analysis and the cost of doing business and anyone who visits your site and acts on the information you provide to us is profiting. I certainly have. :^
Count me in and name your price.
Happy New Year and again, many, many thanks.
Don in Germany
U.S. Forces
surftrader
New member
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Well, I am new here but somewhat well versed at trading. I voted against paying but that is because I like to manage my own money and have found over the last few months that I manage my money very differently than Tom. For instance, I have been committed to the I fund since mid November and very happy with my results. I couldn't understand why Tom was against it and then was really suprised to see him jump in the last few days. This is somewhat irrational behavior for an individual expecting to be paid for his advice.
I enjoy the board and reading everyone's logic about their moves, but would be gone in a heartbeat if it cost money. Tom, I would follow the advice of others and build a larger client base before you go w/ a service charge. You have only tapped the very tip of the iceburg and will lose out on a big chunk if you charge now. If only 3000 out of god knows how many TSP participants are on your site while it is free, imagine how few more will join if they have to pay to experience your services. From a marketing standpoint, I would actually invest some money right now in trying to at least triple your membership and then go for the fee system. Look at it this way, if only 70 people have voted out of 3000, you can expect 2500 + to drop out if a fee is initiated. Not only do you kill your profits, your banner revenue falls as well. Good luck though, I completely understand.
Well, I am new here but somewhat well versed at trading. I voted against paying but that is because I like to manage my own money and have found over the last few months that I manage my money very differently than Tom. For instance, I have been committed to the I fund since mid November and very happy with my results. I couldn't understand why Tom was against it and then was really suprised to see him jump in the last few days. This is somewhat irrational behavior for an individual expecting to be paid for his advice.
I enjoy the board and reading everyone's logic about their moves, but would be gone in a heartbeat if it cost money. Tom, I would follow the advice of others and build a larger client base before you go w/ a service charge. You have only tapped the very tip of the iceburg and will lose out on a big chunk if you charge now. If only 3000 out of god knows how many TSP participants are on your site while it is free, imagine how few more will join if they have to pay to experience your services. From a marketing standpoint, I would actually invest some money right now in trying to at least triple your membership and then go for the fee system. Look at it this way, if only 70 people have voted out of 3000, you can expect 2500 + to drop out if a fee is initiated. Not only do you kill your profits, your banner revenue falls as well. Good luck though, I completely understand.
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surftrader wrote:
But I got to jump in here.I am a lot of things, but irrational is not one of them. Since mid-Nov (15th) the S fund is up 5.4% and the I fund is up 5.1% . Nota big difference but nothing for the I fund to brag about. I also explained repeatedly why I felt the U.S. funds would be lessaffected by the dollar and thus a "safer" bet through the end of the year. I never said the I fund would do better or worse during that time, just more uncertain because of the dollar.
I also gave the reason why I went 50% into the I fund this week and also toldfolks not to follow me becauseof that reason of trying to catch the S&P 500.If I make that move aday earlier,I look likea genius. (The one day delay hurt me Monday.)
surftrader wrote:
Welcome new folks! Thanks again for the feedback on the fee dilemma. I appreciate it!
But I got to jump in here.I am a lot of things, but irrational is not one of them. Since mid-Nov (15th) the S fund is up 5.4% and the I fund is up 5.1% . Nota big difference but nothing for the I fund to brag about. I also explained repeatedly why I felt the U.S. funds would be lessaffected by the dollar and thus a "safer" bet through the end of the year. I never said the I fund would do better or worse during that time, just more uncertain because of the dollar.
I also gave the reason why I went 50% into the I fund this week and also toldfolks not to follow me becauseof that reason of trying to catch the S&P 500.If I make that move aday earlier,I look likea genius. (The one day delay hurt me Monday.)
NEWYORKMBA
New member
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$100 a year sounds fair to me.
$100 a year sounds fair to me.
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Hi,
This is my first post. I have been using this site since spring '04. Unfortunately I can't login and check the comments every day because I travel frequently for my job. Even though I missed some important transfers I am still up at least 20K since joining. I don't know anything about trading so I don't think I could have done that without this service. I would pay for this service.
Thanks Tom! Sorry to hear about your work suspension.
Mike
Hi,
This is my first post. I have been using this site since spring '04. Unfortunately I can't login and check the comments every day because I travel frequently for my job. Even though I missed some important transfers I am still up at least 20K since joining. I don't know anything about trading so I don't think I could have done that without this service. I would pay for this service.
Thanks Tom! Sorry to hear about your work suspension.
Mike
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Tom.
I have only been around for about three weeks so, I can not comment on the value of your advise.I don't think that thewebsite shouldcost you anything (out of pocket) to operate even if it only started outas a hobby.I can alsoseeyouearning money ontop of that for your (off duty)time.
Inyour post you stated:
"I now have over 3000 email alert members and it gets pretty costly to send those emails out. I’ll bet many go unread but the recipient doesn’t realize they can just unsubscribe very easily. Perhaps Icould charge $5 or $10 a month for that service".
If you keep even half of themat only $5.00 a monththat's $7,500 dollars! at $10.00 dollarsyour talking "FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS". Unless my math is wrong. And if you keep all 3000 subscribersyour now talking $30,000.00 a month.
In my humble opinion it can't cost anyware near that much to operate the site (I can't speak tothe value of your advise)and send out emailor you would have never started the site to begin with. Now I realizethat your not happy about your14 day suspension from work.To leave your agencyand get even withthe "Man" would be great.And, if you didlike you stated: "I would obviously haveto be compensated to replace my current income".
Using the $7,500.00a month figure ($90K) a year. Not bad at all. $180K even better. Maybe,im in the wrong business.Who needs a 401k at that rate.
"Best Wishesto you Tom& All of the members of TSP Talk inthe new year!"
Tom.
I have only been around for about three weeks so, I can not comment on the value of your advise.I don't think that thewebsite shouldcost you anything (out of pocket) to operate even if it only started outas a hobby.I can alsoseeyouearning money ontop of that for your (off duty)time.
Inyour post you stated:
"I now have over 3000 email alert members and it gets pretty costly to send those emails out. I’ll bet many go unread but the recipient doesn’t realize they can just unsubscribe very easily. Perhaps Icould charge $5 or $10 a month for that service".
If you keep even half of themat only $5.00 a monththat's $7,500 dollars! at $10.00 dollarsyour talking "FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS". Unless my math is wrong. And if you keep all 3000 subscribersyour now talking $30,000.00 a month.
In my humble opinion it can't cost anyware near that much to operate the site (I can't speak tothe value of your advise)and send out emailor you would have never started the site to begin with. Now I realizethat your not happy about your14 day suspension from work.To leave your agencyand get even withthe "Man" would be great.And, if you didlike you stated: "I would obviously haveto be compensated to replace my current income".
Using the $7,500.00a month figure ($90K) a year. Not bad at all. $180K even better. Maybe,im in the wrong business.Who needs a 401k at that rate.
"Best Wishesto you Tom& All of the members of TSP Talk inthe new year!"
surftrader
New member
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Tom, I think I was misunderstood. I wasn't trying to brag or insult your decision, I was trying to relate them to how you offer advice and what the future will look like if you sell your insight. Obviously you want to grow your site and that will mean obtaining somenew customers. People are instantly going to expect more when they pay for something. New customers will most likely on average be more dependent on your advice. Your moves need to be strongly supported and you will not be able to do things likespending a week calling a fund volatile and iffy (you may have used other words) and then dump 50% of your account in there for no other reason than to beat the market. I know you put a disclaimer up as to why you were doing this, but if you have people paying for your services they are going to be upset if you tell them one thing and then you do another. So again, I was just trying to point out that if you choose to charge, you might lose the ability to gamble as much as you have in the past.
Now back to your B-plan:
One of the reasons why I wouldn't pay is that I have a method that looks for 2 week to 2 month trends. I don't move money around as much as you and have no desire to ever do so. I respect what you do, but I honestly think the market for people who are willing to move money around as much as you is very, very small.
I would send a mass email out to all 3000 users and see if it gets a better response than your poll. +/- 100 people will pay the bills, but it won't let you quit your day job.
It looks like the message board is the most popular thing on your site. You could either keep that for free to attract new customers or charge for this service because it has the largest user base.
Tom, I think I was misunderstood. I wasn't trying to brag or insult your decision, I was trying to relate them to how you offer advice and what the future will look like if you sell your insight. Obviously you want to grow your site and that will mean obtaining somenew customers. People are instantly going to expect more when they pay for something. New customers will most likely on average be more dependent on your advice. Your moves need to be strongly supported and you will not be able to do things likespending a week calling a fund volatile and iffy (you may have used other words) and then dump 50% of your account in there for no other reason than to beat the market. I know you put a disclaimer up as to why you were doing this, but if you have people paying for your services they are going to be upset if you tell them one thing and then you do another. So again, I was just trying to point out that if you choose to charge, you might lose the ability to gamble as much as you have in the past.
Now back to your B-plan:
One of the reasons why I wouldn't pay is that I have a method that looks for 2 week to 2 month trends. I don't move money around as much as you and have no desire to ever do so. I respect what you do, but I honestly think the market for people who are willing to move money around as much as you is very, very small.
I would send a mass email out to all 3000 users and see if it gets a better response than your poll. +/- 100 people will pay the bills, but it won't let you quit your day job.
It looks like the message board is the most popular thing on your site. You could either keep that for free to attract new customers or charge for this service because it has the largest user base.
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SMITTY wrote:
Does everyone accidently find you? My question is how do you let people know your site exists?
If you charge a monthy fee - is it tax deductable????
SMITTY wrote:
Tom: Smitty "accidently discovered" your site and I only learned of this monthfrom Ecurb of Clearwater, FL when our conversationwent off on a tangent and we started talking about TSP. I think youneed to expand your base to more people before/if you start a fee for service.
Does everyone accidently find you? My question is how do you let people know your site exists?
If you charge a monthy fee - is it tax deductable????
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surftrader wrote:
LX280 wrote:
Maybe you are in the wrong business. If you have 20 years investing experience, and 17 years programming experience (I'm new to internet programming how much do you think your time is worth? I'm sure there are others with similar background but I took the time (in my spare time) to create this site to help others. This is more work than my 83K job I am considering giving up. I still have to house and feed my family. It's not just about covering my costs. Plus at some point I would probably have to hire someone to help me out as the site is growing faster than ever. I currently respond tosome 20+ emails a night. Multiply that by 10 if the site goes to 25,000 members as some suggested. :shock:
Like I said, if anyone can give me alternatives, and I'm not sure banner ads are the answer, I'm all ears.
Thanks,
Tom
surftrader wrote:
Good point. I guess I could have short / mid / and long term allocation recommendations and email alerts with different pricing. Thanks.
LX280 wrote:
I doubt I'll get that many people to sign up initially, maybe some day,but I'm being paid for not only my advice and what I know, but my time. I put a ton of time into this site over the last year or two to get it going.
Maybe you are in the wrong business. If you have 20 years investing experience, and 17 years programming experience (I'm new to internet programming
how much do you think your time is worth? I'm sure there are others with similar background but I took the time (in my spare time) to create this site to help others. This is more work than my 83K job I am considering giving up. I still have to house and feed my family. It's not just about covering my costs. Plus at some point I would probably have to hire someone to help me out as the site is growing faster than ever. I currently respond tosome 20+ emails a night. Multiply that by 10 if the site goes to 25,000 members as some suggested. :shock:Like I said, if anyone can give me alternatives, and I'm not sure banner ads are the answer, I'm all ears.
Thanks,
Tom
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RI Yank wrote:
Most of the members come by word of mouth, but I pay Googe and sometimes Yahoo (Overture) to get listed in the search engines. Go to Google or Ask Jeeves and type "tsp help" or"tsp fund alloaction" and you'll see my ads. On Google you should see me on the right and in the regular ads.
RI Yank wrote:
Most of the members come by word of mouth, but I pay Googe and sometimes Yahoo (Overture) to get listed in the search engines. Go to Google or Ask Jeeves and type "tsp help" or"tsp fund alloaction" and you'll see my ads. On Google you should see me on the right and in the regular ads.
I think it would be but there are limitation. It has to be over acertain %of your AGI for it to qualify I believe.
jgpalmerdds
Member
imported post
Tom,
I found this site (originally) back in March '04 from a Google search. I think a good thread to post along with the "Would you pay" thread would be "How did you find this site" thread. Yeah, you could do a poll, but a thread would give you more insight as to how you are obtaining members. I'm not sure what to tell you about the e-mails every night as I have e-mailed you before and appreciated the timely advice/response. Like others have said, you could leave the comments "free" but charge for the alert part and message board. You may be running into some liability issues if you are charging for your advice only. I don't know alot about those things. Maybe someone else could elaborate on this. By the way, the people throwing the party (this site) for everyone else to enjoy shouldn'tbe the ones paying for it out of their own pocket (I call this the Class reunion rule) Later
Joel
Tom,
I found this site (originally) back in March '04 from a Google search. I think a good thread to post along with the "Would you pay" thread would be "How did you find this site" thread. Yeah, you could do a poll, but a thread would give you more insight as to how you are obtaining members. I'm not sure what to tell you about the e-mails every night as I have e-mailed you before and appreciated the timely advice/response. Like others have said, you could leave the comments "free" but charge for the alert part and message board. You may be running into some liability issues if you are charging for your advice only. I don't know alot about those things. Maybe someone else could elaborate on this. By the way, the people throwing the party (this site) for everyone else to enjoy shouldn'tbe the ones paying for it out of their own pocket (I call this the Class reunion rule) Later
Joel
pyriel
Active member
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Hmmm... Let me calculate the numbers here?
Members paying now = zero (0)
Members who might not be willing to pay = I'd say worst case scenario (90%).
Members who might be willing to pay = Again, worst case scenario, (10%).
A possible $3,000.00 (based on $10 contribution) per month not including the advertisements. That will be about $36K per year.
Namor's point of view about keeping this site free for a little while longer and getting more members before turning it into a paysite might be more beneficial for you. As for me, i'd pay. I consider myself pretty well versed when it comes into real estateinvestment, but I need more guidance and educationinmanaging my paper asset. I feel that this site has helped metremendously.
Hmmm... Let me calculate the numbers here?
Members paying now = zero (0)
Members who might not be willing to pay = I'd say worst case scenario (90%).
Members who might be willing to pay = Again, worst case scenario, (10%).
A possible $3,000.00 (based on $10 contribution) per month not including the advertisements. That will be about $36K per year.
Namor's point of view about keeping this site free for a little while longer and getting more members before turning it into a paysite might be more beneficial for you. As for me, i'd pay. I consider myself pretty well versed when it comes into real estateinvestment, but I need more guidance and educationinmanaging my paper asset. I feel that this site has helped metremendously.
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Tom---
You've done a wonderful job with this site since it's conception. To any savy investor, it would beridiculous to assume that they would make 20- 30 % annually guranteed.
I'm confident that most people here would pay a fee to have continued service. As for the other "lurkers" on this site. After a few months being on their own, they would probably decide to do the same.
With people who frequent this site now. I'm sure you could get enough revenue to at least pay for the paid sites that you have. IMO, this is something we should all be contributing to since we all benefit from it.
Tom---
You've done a wonderful job with this site since it's conception. To any savy investor, it would beridiculous to assume that they would make 20- 30 % annually guranteed.
I'm confident that most people here would pay a fee to have continued service. As for the other "lurkers" on this site. After a few months being on their own, they would probably decide to do the same.
With people who frequent this site now. I'm sure you could get enough revenue to at least pay for the paid sites that you have. IMO, this is something we should all be contributing to since we all benefit from it.
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Tom, you preform a very good service and I support you on this endever. I am sorry you had a run in with your management. I would like to see, if we are going to pay a fee that you might even comment on some individual stock picks and or anyother financial intrest that might be helpful. I follow your comments everyday, and like the others look forward to reading them everyday.:^
Tom, you preform a very good service and I support you on this endever. I am sorry you had a run in with your management. I would like to see, if we are going to pay a fee that you might even comment on some individual stock picks and or anyother financial intrest that might be helpful. I follow your comments everyday, and like the others look forward to reading them everyday.:^
