How to buy American made tires

[James48843]

Evergreen Solar manufactures here, and exports about 70% of its production. Germany, Spain and Portugal are big importers, because their governments have made a decision to support solar.

Now, our government is starting to go that route. Prices per watt installed are lower than ever before, and there is a 30% federal tax credit, along with some states giving state level incentives. I'm looking at possibly doing a system at my home- a small one to start- a 2KW system, but it is still about 15K outlay to start with. Then 30% tax credit ($4500), and a energy company program that reimbruses up front at $2.48 a watt ($4960), means that the 15K outlay really only costs $5540, and then the power company will buy the power from me at 11 cents a kilowatt hour. (Not great, but not bad either. )

Thinking hard about that now.

 

[Silverbird]

Applied Materials - manufactures equipment that is used in the production of solar cells and panels, they sell all around the world (well that's slightly hyperbole - those countries producing solar cells and panels). From what I remember, they mostly produce their equipment here - the equipment is highly specialized and there is only a small market out there - most of their overseas work is maintaining their equipment. They are the largest producer of equipment for solar cell and panel production in the world.They also offer a full turnkey lines for both the production and panel products using both their own products and those of other companies (only one or possibly 2 other companies can offer a full line). They do not produce solar cells or assemble panels themselves.

And I wish they were selling more of their equipment here, but most of the solar cell and panel consumption is outside of the U.S. (due to our old grid and lack of incentives). The US represents no more than 10 percent of the world market, mostly in California, with New Jersey and a few other states and localities in the game. Unfortunately that means a lot of Applied's sales for solar panel equipment are in Germany, Japan, Korea, with only some in the US, so they sell where their equipment is needed.

 

[alevin]

Easy...easy. The technology is in the solar cells, which are being made by the US company - I assume you are talking about First Solar?

Actually SB, I'm talking about Applied Materials.....' And I probably did get the story a little bit garbled, but bottom line is we're reimporting panels, and the article had logic to it about economic policy changes that would allow for fiscally-efficient production here instead of China

Now my arguement with the US is a different thing, we don't have a big enough market to justify building a panel plant here except on a city by city basis - because if the electricity infrastructure (for solar power) isn't capable of taking solar the only projects are going to be local, single industrial plant, or house by house. Development of the grid, however, though there are projects being funded and lots of R&D, still we do not have enough to jump to large scale production for the US market I agree the grid as a whole can't handle the production if we were to make them more affordable here in general -which means adding local plants and/or house by house production/storage or we start redirecting investment to upgrading/adding to the grid-or all of the above wherever it makes sense.
China has announced some very gradious huge solar power projects, and I was talking Applied Materials First Solar wants to be there. I think they sound a bit too much like their 7 Gorges Dam Project (been there, seen that, studied it-agree with you), largest solar power farm in the world (actually I think they already did the ground-breaking for this one) may sound good as a byline but it's not practical. But you can't blame First Solar for wanting to put their panel plant near the possible biggest project for solar.

Whoa, no problem with that, just a problem with our inability to bring panel production/jobs back here that can support itself without government price support/incentives/rebates, when AM is sending tech overseas to production factories there for reimport here (subsidized by rebates to consumers/communities).

 

[Silverbird]

Read a major newspaper article today about a high-tech company in this state that sells their technical product to china for incorporation into solar panels, which are then sold back to US. Green energy should be produced here, ya think? cut the transportation cost part of the panels substantially, we could quit subsidizing solar and it could make a buck here and finally go head to head with fossil energy sources maybe on its own 2 feet.

Easy...easy. The technology is in the solar cells, which are being made by the US company - I assume you are talking about First Solar? Assemblying into huge panels is NOT the high value added step, this is is the solar equivalent of stuffing boards into a very huge and fragile computer casing and shipping the result. Actually would be more angry if they were making the Solar cells in China and doing the panel assembly here, which is the usual practice since solar panels are huge and hard to ship.

The thing that's nuts about this idea is the panels are made of up multple solar cells and are huge. Shipping them is a perilous enterprise. It may be because you need a huge factory with lots of huge machines in it to move those bloody panels around, and the cost of the land makes a big difference. The other thing about panel production is it is highly automated due to the size and weight of the panels so there aren't as many employees as you would think with the floor space (if you get hit by one for an industrial building you could get crushed, there is no way a human can physically pick the large size ones up. First Solar's solar cells use a technology that becomes cheaper as the solar cell gets larger so their panels are..huge).

Now my arguement with the US is a different thing, we don't have a big enough market to justify building a panel plant here except on a city by city basis - because if the electricity infrastructure (for solar power) isn't capable of taking solar the only projects are going to be local, single industrial plant, or house by house. Development of the grid, however, though there are projects being funded and lots of R&D, still we do not have enough to jump to large scale production for the US market (Germany, Italy, Korea and others are the markets)

China has announced some very gradious huge solar power projects, and First Solar wants to be there. I think they sound a bit too much like their 7 Gorges Dam Project, largest solar power farm in the world (actually I think they already did the ground-breaking for this one) may sound good as a byline but it's not practical. But you can't blame First Solar for wanting to put their panel plant near the possible biggest project for solar.

 

[coolhand]

Coolhand, I sincerely appreciate this post my friend but HONESTLY that is the whole reason why I try to distance myself from 'Politics'. I know way more than you realize -- way more about the details of how the Federal Government is structured and operates... the influence Corporations and Industries have on the 'Global Population ... the Money Club that controls who joins and what every country wanting to join has to go through and how the Major Players (few in number) have it so easy and make it so hard on the others. I know how one Goverment is tied to another - how the USA is designed to drain the resources of other Nations and how they in turn are a draining pipe to China. I know about many of the covert operations that have transpired over the years... and how what is 'in the light' and what is known --- is based entirely on what's in the shadows and will remain in secret.

You are absolutely RIGHT 'this is an infinitely more complicated issue than that and cannot easily be discussed' - because when JFK became President the Government had already been working hand and hand with the Organized Mob. Plans had long been in place to attack and overthrow Cuba and he was given the total assurance it would not hit the media - he would not be blimished - and the USA would come out looking all the better. So can we really blame JFK ?? once the details are elaborated??

In the same light does anyone know 'the complicated details in their entireity - to throw everything on Obama and make 'him' the constant target of our aggression?

It's all a Circus - change the players and the Circus remains the same.

Wow. Great post! I'm going to give you kudos for that.

 

[Steadygain]

Steady, this is an infinitely more complicated issue than that and cannot easily be discussed on a simple MB. Read "The World is Flat". You will be amazed at how much deeper this subject actually is.

Coolhand, I sincerely appreciate this post my friend but HONESTLY that is the whole reason why I try to distance myself from 'Politics'. I know way more than you realize -- way more about the details of how the Federal Government is structured and operates... the influence Corporations and Industries have on the 'Global Population ... the Money Club that controls who joins and what every country wanting to join has to go through and how the Major Players (few in number) have it so easy and make it so hard on the others. I know how one Goverment is tied to another - how the USA is designed to drain the resources of other Nations and how they in turn are a draining pipe to China. I know about many of the covert operations that have transpired over the years... and how what is 'in the light' and what is known --- is based entirely on what's in the shadows and will remain in secret.

You are absolutely RIGHT 'this is an infinitely more complicated issue than that and cannot easily be discussed' - because when JFK became President the Government had already been working hand and hand with the Organized Mob. Plans had long been in place to attack and overthrow Cuba and he was given the total assurance it would not hit the media - he would not be blimished - and the USA would come out looking all the better. So can we really blame JFK ?? once the details are elaborated??

In the same light does anyone know 'the complicated details in their entireity - to throw everything on Obama and make 'him' the constant target of our aggression?

It's all a Circus - change the players and the Circus remains the same.

 

[alevin]

makes one want to go and look at the FairTax stuff again, no?

I looked and liked the first time, haven't changed. Even told the DNC so when they sent me a questionnaire a few years ago. One of the premises of the Fair Tax is that it would provide incentives for companies to bring their operations back to the states by eliminating the corporate tax burden, which would then make us way more competitive with other countries as a potential base of operations.

Read a major newspaper article today about a high-tech company in this state that sells their technical product to china for incorporation into solar panels, which are then sold back to US. Green energy should be produced here, ya think? cut the transportation cost part of the panels substantially, we could quit subsidizing solar and it could make a buck here and finally go head to head with fossil energy sources maybe on its own 2 feet.

 

[Steadygain]

However, changing the whole U.S. tax system....not going to happen.

I think you've brought out a lot of good points.

Here, however, I believe some huge changes will not only happen but we 'the good ole USA' will be 'forced' to make these changes.

We either worship and immensely pay honor and tribute to our Mother CHINA (said with thundering cheers with all the bells and whistles) or the delay of substantially higher taxes ends.

There is simply NO WAY 'Politics' can continue holding this ever increasing RISING LAKE back much longer. The DAM is cracking my friends (Hallaluja) and the U.S. Tax System will suck blood out of turnips...

Thank you !!

Brought to you by the Commie pinko Society


p.s. Hi CB -- I agree she knows her stuff

 

[CountryBoy]

Clean hands vs Dirty hands: Have to say this. Working with your hands is NOT respected in the U.S., and certified training as an alternative to college on the whole is NOT available here on a large scale. This means OTJ training for manufacturing - and fear that your worker is going to jump after training to ...somoene else.

As an anecdotal following up to Silverbird's comments, one of our local barge companies that ship on the inland waterway system and also repairs barges, have stated in several articles that they could hire 200 welders right now, for repair/maintenance/construction, if qualified welders were available and he echoed your thoughts also, Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and these jobs are good paying jobs.

The economy has reduced the need for new barges, but the barging industry is increasing their maintenance to get additional life from their existing fleets and qualified welders are in great demand and get top dollar.

I always enjoy your insights on the economy.

CB

 

[Silverbird]

Income taxes worked fine during the Industrial Revolution and when employers were primarily guild-based. Doesn't work anywhere as well now, with mobile work forces and worldwide logistics and transportation. You can't equate a company's ability to make money with how many workers they employ in country and how much those workers make in country anymore.

However, changing the whole U.S. tax system....not going to happen.

 

[Minnow]

Cost per worker II: We also tax based on income and part of this is paid by employers. Most other industrialized countries may have a small tax on employees but most of their taxes are consumption taxes, not earnings/gains taxes - I have always found it wierd we tax people for working and employers for employing people but that's me ok?

Not to dismiss everything else you said... but I've always looked at this and wondered the same thing from an end result perspective. Aren't we just taxing the employed? ...guess I'm weird, too. ---makes one want to go and look at the FairTax stuff again, no?

This has nothing to do with tires ... so... I buy Michelin and nothing else end of the discussion for me (Hope this meets with James' approval).

 

[James48843]

... Considering not all companies offer insurance and there are varying amounts of company payment to health insurance companies, these costs probably vary widely depending on what company you are talking about. The Federal government contributes around 73 percent toward the cost of health insurance per employee - I have a feeling this is NOT the norm but have no data either way on private companies.

...

Employee share of Health Care premiums- private sector:

More: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20060816/​

 

[Silverbird]

Ow..hot potato alert.
Here are my random 2 pennies, whether they are copper or zinc, your choice.

Yes, the U.S. remains a center of innovation.

Therefore, intellectual property IS our number one commodity. That's why there is resistance here on giving away any technologies to anyone else. Plus, it's our companies that take the risks.

The R&D funding void: Pre-competitive R and D there is funding available. After you get your production going, and have some dependable output, you can get funding from investors. Getting production started to a reliable production line...VERY difficult to fund or do in the U.S.

Building a plant in the U.S. is highly regulated. There are some good reasons for this (no dumping your waste out the back anymore) and some NIMBY reasons. A lot of places actually don't want an industrial plant anywhere near them. Most other countries offer incentives to build in their country. We on the whole don't. Our incentives are purely on a local level, when they exist at all. Closest thing we have is SBA loans on the federal level.

Cost per worker: We have one of the highest in the world. Although I'm only glancing at working with preliminary data for 2007 that hasn't be consolidated yet, it appears health related costs (probably includes Medicare but have not found clarification on Census web site yet) are around an average 10 percent of a total cost of an employee. Unfortunately the survey doesn't split this cost for small and medium vs large companies, and it's known the smaller the company, the more likely there not to be health insurance. Considering not all companies offer insurance and there are varying amounts of company payment to health insurance companies, these costs probably vary widely depending on what company you are talking about. The Federal government contributes around 73 percent toward the cost of health insurance per employee - I have a feeling this is NOT the norm but have no data either way on private companies. Regardless I think usually the company has to contribute at least something toward the insurance premiums if they want to offer health insurance.

Cost per worker II: We also tax based on income and part of this is paid by employers. Most other industrialized countries may have a small tax on employees but most of their taxes are consumption taxes, not earnings/gains taxes - I have always found it wierd we tax people for working and employers for employing people but that's me ok?

Clean hands vs Dirty hands: Have to say this. Working with your hands is NOT respected in the U.S., and certified training as an alternative to college on the whole is NOT available here on a large scale. This means OTJ training for manufacturing - and fear that your worker is going to jump after training to ...somoene else.

So those are my musings, take them as you like...

 

[coolhand]

That is Primarily Based on 'Cheap Labor' and substantially less BS for the 'American Companies' do deal with by arrangeing to have their products assembled outside 'our borders'.

What you may think of as 'American' ... such as long standing S&P Companies ~~ may now have moved to Ireland (or wherever)

Please don't let this post interrupt your dialog - just look at it as a brief commerial

Steady, this is an infinitely more complicated issue than that and cannot easily be discussed on a simple MB. Read "The World is Flat". You will be amazed at how much deeper this subject actually is.

 

[Steadygain]

this is a global ecomony brought about largely through technological breakthroughs

That is WHY I keep Technology before everything else. By knowing the break throughs and all the more what is 'comming out' you can't possibly go wrong.

Buying American is not as obvious a remedy as it may seem.

That is Primarily Based on 'Cheap Labor' and substantially less BS for the 'American Companies' do deal with by arrangeing to have their products assembled outside 'our borders'.

What you may think of as 'American' ... such as long standing S&P Companies ~~ may now have moved to Ireland (or wherever)

Please don't let this post interrupt your dialog - just look at it as a brief commerial

 

[coolhand]

Yep, that's why I identified it as an opinion piece, rather than calling it a news story.

But it is sad.

thousands of more jobs disappearing here.

That "giant sucking sound" continues.

James, this is a global ecomony brought about largely through technological breakthroughs (internet, computers, etc.) Buying American is not as obvious a remedy as it may seem. Have you ever read "The World is Flat"?

 

[James48843]

As we can easily see, this issue is like an onion. I can't say how on-target this piece is, but I do know that the guy who wrote it has a dog in this fight. That calls for a little scrutiny.

Yep, that's why I identified it as an opinion piece, rather than calling it a news story.

But it is sad.

thousands of more jobs disappearing here.

That "giant sucking sound" continues.

 

[James48843]

I fully agree.


By the way- here is the statement of the company President in Union, New Jersey (Foreign Tires is the company name.) after the tariffs were announced:
-----------------------------------------

" FTS was and is firmly opposed to the clearly protectionist, union driven trade penalty imposed by President Obama. FTS was extremely active in opposing the petition and ultimate relief. FTS conducted a letter writing campaign and was an active member of the American Coalition for Free Trade in Tires. This group was comprised of several tire importers/distributors.

FTS is committed to supporting the Chinese factories that we purchase from.

We hope that our customers will continue to support those factories and FTS during these turbulent times.

FTS’ commitment to providing high quality, safe tires at reasonable prices continues unabated. FTS will continue to offer its customers and potential customers the highest quality customer service in the industry and we thank you for your previous and continued support.

Richard Kuskin and the entire FTS staff "


It's sad to read that Mr. Kuskin, of New Jersey, is so comitteed to supporting Chinese factories, and hopes his customers will be just as committed to supporting Chinese factories during "these turbulent times".



P.S.- For irony: The company "Foreign Tires", is based in...now get this..... UNION, New Jersey. )

 

[coolhand]

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/09/obama-risks-global-trade-war-with.html

 

[James48843]

While all this has been going on- China fixing the price of the Yuan instead of letting it float- China has moved from providing 5% of America's tires, to over 17%, just in five years. And in 2009, the numbers continue to jump, even though American tires are priced competitively, China is dumping tires from their state owned industries into our country, even in the midst of our recession:

View attachment 6814

This unfair trade- government tire factory dumping tires into the American market, while at the same time refusing to let the Yuan float free, is destroying what is left of the American tire industry:

View attachment 6815

THAT is what the tire tariffs are all about- trying to gain some time for American industry to adjust to what is seen as unfair trade and unfair competition.


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