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RealMoneyIssues said:
Why is the union allowing this?
Click to expand...

You're kidding, right?

The Volt discussion has gone political. Right-wingers are bad-mouthing it, causing the production of this to become a punching bag. How do you think any Union can counter the right-wing politicization of the Volt?

""We did not develop the Chevy Volt to be a political punching bag," General Motors CEO Daniel Akerson testified before Congress in the same January hearing. "We engineered the Volt to be a technological wonder."



The fact is that they have shut down production to do some tweaks to the model production line for the benefit of California drivers. California last week approved the Volt to be eligible to use the HOV lanes. However, they had to change the exhaust system slightly to meet California's rules, and also increase the battery warranty from 7 to 10 years.

See http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/feb/23/2012-chevrolet-volt-okd-california-hov-lanes/

As a result, GM wants to clear out the 2011 models from dealers, make the line changes at the Detroit Volt plant, and then restart production in about a month.

The workers get laid-off in the meantime while they work on changing the line. Actually, layoffs for plant mods are done all the time, without regard to whether or not the product is a Volt. Layoffs is one of the normal hazards of car manufacturing workers.
 
James48843 said:
You're kidding, right?

The Volt discussion has gone political. Right-wingers are bad-mouthing it, causing the production of this to become a punching bag. How do you think any Union can counter the right-wing politicization of the Volt?

""We did not develop the Chevy Volt to be a political punching bag," General Motors CEO Daniel Akerson testified before Congress in the same January hearing. "We engineered the Volt to be a technological wonder."
Click to expand...

Dang James, settle down. I was asking about why the GM auto workers union, that owns a large portion of the company, would allow the laying off of it's employees. That's it, nothing more.

Wow, breathe...
 
RealMoneyIssues said:
Dang James, settle down. I was asking about why the GM auto workers union, that owns a large portion of the company, would allow the laying off of it's employees. That's it, nothing more.

Wow, breathe...
Click to expand...

The United Auto Workers (UAW) does not "own a large portion of the company." That is a myth.

The UAW's Medical trust fund owns a 10 percent share in the company. That doesn't even get the medical trust fund a seat on the board of directors. That is simply some shares of stock, which GM kicked in to help pay the pension medical benefits promised to workers in many years of contracts. Since GM could not pay what they owed, they gave the trust fund new company shares of stock for that fund. It's not the UAW who owns those shares- it's the GM retiree medical trust fund.


The United Auto Workers do not have any say in the day-to-day management of the company. The UAW workers build cars. Management plans, directs, forecasts, decides which models to build, and which factories the cars will be built in. While the UAW can voice it's opinion, it has no power to directly influence any decision.

See Fact check: Politicians make artful swerves on auto bailout - DailyHerald.com
 
It's absolutely irrelevant that Trumka visits the White House staff 2-3 times per week and speaks with them daily. It was not noticed by management that Waggoner was sacked, bondholders were told about the IRS, Henderson moved out, Whitacre moved on after ill chosen words....come on....the world knows the truth....
 
It is with great trepidation that I post this, since I like the Volt. But I was actually hoping that it's production was over. Then my Volt would be worth a $$$$FORTUNE$$$$!
 
I alway thought that the Volt was the most promising Electric/GAS car any maker had come up with, and it's really fast in the electric mode, but probably really weak in the gas mode, wing wing! Now the battery problem has disappointed everyone and that applies to all of the copycats. They have to assure that this tremendous bank of batteries is safe, and I don't think that has happened, remember the exploding laptops, can you imagine. ZAP!!!!!!!!!
 
James48843 said:
The United Auto Workers (UAW) does not "own a large portion of the company." That is a myth.

The UAW's Medical trust fund owns a 10 percent share in the company. That doesn't even get the medical trust fund a seat on the board of directors. That is simply some shares of stock, which GM kicked in to help pay the pension medical benefits promised to workers in many years of contracts. Since GM could not pay what they owed, they gave the trust fund new company shares of stock for that fund. It's not the UAW who owns those shares- it's the GM retiree medical trust fund.
Click to expand...

Leadership Overview
Fiduciary oversight of the Trust is provided by an 11-member Committee consisting of six (6) independent members and five (5) members appointed by the UAW. The Committee has the responsibility for designing and delivering medical benefits to eligible UAW retirees, surviving spouses and dependents. To provide these benefits, the Committee can use only the assets available in the Trust Fund. The Trust Fund has three separate accounts for each UAW retiree population of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler
Click to expand...
Committee Biographies
I think I see the UAW leadership there... my eyesight is a little blurry...

James48843 said:
The United Auto Workers do not have any say in the day-to-day management of the company. The UAW workers build cars. Management plans, directs, forecasts, decides which models to build, and which factories the cars will be built in.
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Agreed.

James48843 said:
While the UAW can voice it's opinion, it has no power to directly influence any decision.
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Are you really that naive? You can say that publicly all you want, but I have personal experience in the manufacturing, auto, and energy industry that shows that to be untrue...
 
GM chief: "We got a second chance" - CBS News
U.S. taxpayers have recovered nearly half of their $50 billion investment in GM when the U.S. Treasury took a majority stake in the company back in 2009. The government still owns 500 million shares. And if it wants to sell and just break even, GM's stock will have to double in value from where it is today.
Click to expand...

Can you imagine how long it would take to offload 500 million shares even if GM stock got to $54.34???
Look at what happens as Bill Gates offloads 20 million each quarter of his MS stock... 500 million, wow... We will be holding that "bag" for decades...

GM Close on 2/17/2012 - $27.17, double $54.34 => $27.17 Billion owed to the US Taxpayers

 
nnuut said:
I alway thought that the Volt was the most promising Electric/GAS car any maker had come up with, and it's really fast in the electric mode, but probably really weak in the gas mode, wing wing! Now the battery problem has disappointed everyone and that applies to all of the copycats. They have to assure that this tremendous bank of batteries is safe, and I don't think that has happened, remember the exploding laptops, can you imagine. ZAP!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

There's not enough time in life to address all criticisms, but at least the battery issue is an interesting one.

The Volt uses lithium-ion batteries.
1). Pure lithium has a problem with water:
2Li + 2H2O --> 2LiOH + H2 + heat
Not good.
2). Lithium-ion batteries have a problem of going into thermal runaway around 350F. Not good.

Lithium batteries were first pioneered as early as 1912; by 1970?, non-rechargables; and by 1991, Sony's first rechargable.
That's 100 years of development going into making these batteries safe; still, however, additional lessens were learned when there was a battery fire. This stuff fills books.

Anyway, back to the Volt. There were 2 battery fires as the result of NHTSA tests simulating a side impact and rollover. The fires did not break out until several hours to several days after the test and unattended. The reports I've read generally said that the coolant leaked and eventually created a short circuit. Maybe somewhat questionable, because lithium-ion batteries are circuit protected from external shorts (an internal fuse blows). Maybe it was just a weak short, enough to slowly heat things up, but not enough to blow the fuse. I think it took time for the coolant to form crystals which formed the short circuit.

Should I be concerned by this? Not really. The Volt's computers monitor the batteries temperature at all times, even when it's turned off. Coolant and fans are operated by computer whether you're driving, charging or leaving it set unattended. Maintenance issues are reported on displays and also go to "On-Star" who will notify you, or in the event of an accident, notify the emergency response teams. Chevy has provided the public fire department emergency response teams with procedures in how to discharge the batteries. Chevy will also respond to a Volt accident with its own team to make sure the batteries are discharged. To satisfy NHTSA, additional reinforcement is added in the battery tunnel. All this for a hazard that is extremely rare in the first place. I'm not sure if gasoline is as safe as this. Of course, if it happens to me, I'll sing a different tune.
 
paydirt said:
There's not enough time in life to address all criticisms, but at least the battery issue is an interesting one.

The Volt uses lithium-ion batteries.
1). Pure lithium has a problem with water:
2Li + 2H2O --> 2LiOH + H2 + heat
Not good.
2). Lithium-ion batteries have a problem of going into thermal runaway around 350F. Not good.

Lithium batteries were first pioneered as early as 1912; by 1970?, non-rechargables; and by 1991, Sony's first rechargable.
That's 100 years of development going into making these batteries safe; still, however, additional lessens were learned when there was a battery fire. This stuff fills books.

Anyway, back to the Volt. There were 2 battery fires as the result of NHTSA tests simulating a side impact and rollover. The fires did not break out until several hours to several days after the test and unattended. The reports I've read generally said that the coolant leaked and eventually created a short circuit. Maybe somewhat questionable, because lithium-ion batteries are circuit protected from external shorts (an internal fuse blows). Maybe it was just a weak short, enough to slowly heat things up, but not enough to blow the fuse. I think it took time for the coolant to form crystals which formed the short circuit.

Should I be concerned by this? Not really. The Volt's computers monitor the batteries temperature at all times, even when it's turned off. Coolant and fans are operated by computer whether you're driving, charging or leaving it set unattended. Maintenance issues are reported on displays and also go to "On-Star" who will notify you, or in the event of an accident, notify the emergency response teams. Chevy has provided the public fire department emergency response teams with procedures in how to discharge the batteries. Chevy will also respond to a Volt accident with its own team to make sure the batteries are discharged. To satisfy NHTSA, additional reinforcement is added in the battery tunnel. All this for a hazard that is extremely rare in the first place. I'm not sure if gasoline is as safe as this. Of course, if it happens to me, I'll sing a different tune.
Click to expand...


How many customer owned Volts have burst into flame sitting in the driveway? Zero.

How many customer owned Volts have burst into flame on their own, in any situation outside of after a major damage from a test accident? Zerio.

There is no fire problem with Volts.

These are not Ford Pintos. Period.
 
James48843 said:
That is the leadership of the MEDICAL CARE TRUST FUND- not of GM.

GM is NOT the medical trust fund.


There are no Union members on the Board of Directors of GM. None.

Think whatever you want- the Union does not make decisions for GM's management. Period.
Click to expand...

Naive perspective, but thanks for clarifying what I didn't say.
 
James48843 said:
How many customer owned Volts have burst into flame sitting in the driveway? Zero.

How many customer owned Volts have burst into flame on their own, in any situation outside of after a major damage from a test accident? Zerio.

There is no fire problem with Volts.

These are not Ford Pintos. Period.
Click to expand...

...er, well, actually there was a fire problem with Volts which I thought I had explained had been addressed. Lithium-ion batteries are a legitimate cause for concern not only in automobiles, but also in aircraft:

"Carrying lithium-ion batteries on an aircraft is "mostly" a hazardous materials issue for the Federal Aviation Administration, says Adam Comis, press secretary for the House Committee on Homeland Security.
The FAA, which regulates flight safety, classifies lithium batteries as hazardous materials because they "present chemical and electrical hazards" and are a fire risk." Are lithium-ion batteries the next threat to airline safety? - USATODAY.com​

Also, actually, the Ford Pinto problem was a fire hazard problem in rear end collisions, unaddressed by proper protection and placement of the gas tank. Still, I agree with you that these are not Ford Pintos.
 
I know lithium batteries are potentially dangerous if short circuited.

The point I was making is that the alleged Volt fire issue was not an issue of a customer owned car, but rather of an isolated case of damaged cells after an accident. If you don't have an accident, there is not an issue.

That's all I'm saying. Much ado about nothing. The Volt does not burst into flame on it's own parked in the garage. Period.
 
Kind of like saying if you don't have a accident you don't need a seat belt or if you don't get hit in the rear of your Ford Pinto...............



James48843 said:
I know lithium batteries are potentially dangerous if short circuited.

The point I was making is that the alleged Volt fire issue was not an issue of a customer owned car, but rather of an isolated case of damaged cells after an accident. If you don't have an accident, there is not an issue.

That's all I'm saying. Much ado about nothing. The Volt does not burst into flame on it's own parked in the garage. Period.
Click to expand...
 
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