Do auto workers really earn $73 an hour?

[James48843]

If Toyota pays their workers $30 and GM pays its union workers $29, why are the GM worker paying dues to the union-bosses? huh?

Because GM also pays for the retirement benefits of 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

The reason Toyota is paying their workers $30 an hour is to prevent them from trying to organize labor unions in their plants.

Tell me straight up- if GM was paying $10 an hour, do you think Toyota would be paying $30 an hour?

Think about that for a minute before answering...

 

[McDuck]

How Unions Stop The Cars

Shikha Dalmia 12.12.08, 3:20 PM ET

With the late-night demise of legislation containing $14 billion in emergency loans to Detroit's automakers, pressure is once again mounting on President Bush to step in. And he is reportedly thinking of doing just that.

But the very thing that doomed this legislation will also doom any effort to rescue the industry: union intransigence. If Bush cares more about taxpayers than kudos, he should decline.

The legislation, backed by Sen. Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican whose state itself is home to GM facilities, was the industry's best hope to return to health. It stripped some of the green baggage of the House bill that would have consigned Detroit to producing not cars that sell but what eco-warriors want. Nor would the legislation have handed quite as expansive powers of micromanagement to a car czar, forcing companies to obtain approval for basic product and capacity decisions.

Instead, it offered the automakers a way to restructure their massive obligations to labor and debtors, much like a bankruptcy court would do but without the stigma. Bondholders would have been required to accept a 70% loss--the remainder paid in stock, not cash. And Big Labor's main concession (besides accepting some stock instead of cash for its health care trust fund) was that it set a definite date for a pay cut next year.

At that time, its wages and benefits would fall in line with those that Nissan, Toyota and other automakers pay their U.S. workers.

But the United Auto Workers reacted as if it had been asked to work in a Third World sweat shop and walked away. Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., decried efforts to "sock it" to American workers. Never mind that labor costs make every car rolling out of Detroit $1,500 more expensive to produce than foreign cars made elsewhere in the U.S. Indeed, last year, GM and Toyota sold the same number of cars worldwide, but Toyota turned a healthy profit--while GM posted a $40 billion loss.

But the fact of the matter is that the wage cuts are a necessary condition to give Detroit a fighting chance for survival, but they're not sufficient. Indeed, that would require far more from unions.

Car sales next year are expected to drop 40%. This means that if auto companies are going to use any bailout money to restore viability, they will have to be able to shed some of its quarter-million-strong workforce.

However, if the UAW was unwilling to accept a pay cut, there is no reason to believe that it would compliantly accept such massive layoffs. More likely, it will use taxpayer money to keep every job alive as long as possible--and then return for more a few months later.

Beyond job cuts, the UAW will also have to agree to eliminate a whole host of exceedingly rigid work rules for its remaining constituents. Such rules, for instance, had historically made it difficult to train auto workers for multiple jobs to fulfill multiple needs. No less than labor's extravagant wage demands, these rules have crimped Detroit's adaptability.

Ford recently built a facility in Brazil where it can produce five different vehicle platforms at the same time, on the same line. What's more, many of its suppliers are housed in the facility as well, something that allows them to move parts to the assembly line at a moment's notice. Not only has this lowered Ford's production costs and boosted productivity, it has also given it flexibility to adjust its product mix to shifting market conditions. This is important at any time but is especially crucial now, when volatile oil prices are likely to produce abrupt shifts in consumer demand.

But union rules, with their featherbedding requirements and crabbed job descriptions, make it much harder for such a factory-of-the-future to operate in the U.S.

The irony is that foreign car makers are profitable in America--and the Detroit Three are profitable in every country but America. Only Big Labor can position Detroit carmakers for success in their own country. Bush shouldn't ask already-strapped taxpayers to make sacrifices to pull Detroit back from the precipice when its own key stakeholder won't.

Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at the Los Angeles-based Reason Foundation.

 

[McDuck]

Because GM also pays for the retirement benefits of 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses.

Let those people pay for all the Union Bo$$e$. They are the ones getting the gold-plated benefits.

 

[McDuck]

Tell me straight up-

Jimbo,

Other than a single letter from NTEU, did the union fat-cats do anything to try to prevent the IFT limitations put on us? Did they?

The union bosses take care of themselves and punish the workers. Being a union bo$$ is where the real money is now days. That's is why Obama's Chicago friend wanted to become one by selling the Senate seat.

 

[McDuck]

This year, for example, GM employs 73,000 UAW workers. That's down from 102,000 in 2005, and 123,000 in 2000.

Those 50,000 people got paid 95% of their salary for doing nothing being in the "job bank". And the UAW fatcats got their cut.

Like they say in Obamaland (Chicago), cut me in or cut it out.

 

[James48843]

Those 50,000 people got paid 95% of their salary for doing nothing being in the "job bank". And the UAW fatcats got their cut.

Like they say in Obamaland (Chicago), cut me in or cut it out.

Greg, not so.

What do you know about the job bank? What evidence do you have about UAW "fat cats" getting a cut of anything? You are just plain wrong.

Those 50,000 left, got buyouts or just plain flat out retired. The buyouts ranged from about 20K to about 140K. Many workers simply got a 25K payout and nothing else, after working for 25 years. No pension, no health care, no training opportunity, nothing. Others - particularly white collar salary, got the higher end buyout figures.

None of them are in the job bank- which, by the way, has about 1,000 workers in it now. Job bank was offered up by UAW, but that wasn't enough for Corker. UAW offered to negotiate on wages, but only if Toyota's books were made available to the UAW, and if Republicans would be satisfied if UAW workers made less than Toyota. Republicans refused, insisted that UAW retirees lose their pensions and health care, and killed the deal.

 

[James48843]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/flowcha...flowchart:why-aig-gets-billions-gm-gets-scorn

AIG gets billions, while GM gets nothing.

 

[Show-me]

How about no executive should be allowed to make more than the President of the United States, all bonuses or incentive pay are killed, and all other wages frozen until the company is profitable with out taxpayer help. Any further concessions would be based on percentage and distributed across the board to all employees.

 

[Gumby]

How about no executive should be allowed to make more than the President of the United States, all bonuses or incentive pay are killed, and all other wages frozen until the company is profitable with out taxpayer help. Any further concessions would be based on percentage and distributed across the board to all employees.

Show-me,

You should run for office. Grat idea!

 

[CountryBoy]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/flowcha...flowchart:why-aig-gets-billions-gm-gets-scorn

AIG gets billions, while GM gets nothing.

James,

Neither one should've have gotten anything. If they fail, there is always someone more efficient to step into the vaccuum, if such a vaccuum is really there, because the American people will want the additional product. That's called capitalism, I believe. Supplying someone with a service or product, they want, and making a product. Is it perfect?,,, No, because we having greedy people out there and they should be locked up. But these bailouts gotta stop or we'll continue to mortgage our children's future.

As a personal aside, I'm sick and tired of these bailout rallies. Let the market do it's thing. You screw up, you pay the piper, not get a welfare check from Uncle Sugar, and that's all these bailouts are.. Corporate welfare.

We've got to stop this somewhere. The first state that gets a bailout will officially change us to the United Socialist States of America, because the flood gates will be open. I know my own state of Ohio is very deep in debt, not near as bad as CA or MI, but probably 3rd, but Strickland is standing tall for a Lib and is going to cut services and stop our 5 year tax cut plan. I can live with that. I've had to cut back on my living expenses.

Enough of this.

CB

 

[McDuck]

What do you know about the job bank?

A.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/10/z1ed10top22745-union-tribune-editorial/?uniontrib

'ludicrous “job bank,” in which 14,000-plus laid-off workers are paid to sit around and do crossword puzzles'

B.

http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9514727&nav=menu1362_2
'The job bank would provide laidoff GM workers with an extra two years of pay after the plant closes.'

C.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

P.S. I'm a due-paying union member and drive a 1993 Chevy everyday !

 

[McDuck]

Jimbo,

Other than a single letter from NTEU, did the union fat-cats do anything to try to prevent the IFT limitations put on us? Did they?

The union bosses take care of themselves and punish the workers. Being a union bo$$ is where the real money is now days. That's is why Obama's Chicago friend wanted to become one by selling the Senate seat.

Jimbo, Are you going to reply to this ?

 

[McDuck]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/BIZ/708150406

Potter, in his last full year as president of UFCW Local 951, made $305,000.

...

Differences in union hall pay scales are often as glaring as the pay gap between union and non-union shops. Some labor organizations lavish their officers with high salaries and generous benefit packages unavailable to the rank-and-file

...

At most Meijer stores in Michigan, top pay is nearly $20 an hour for a butcher. Most make far less. Meanwhile, Potter has a condo in Grosse Pointe Park and a home on more than seven acres in Grand Haven. He owns four cars, including a Cadillac and a Corvette, according to Michigan Secretary of State records.

...

 

[McDuck]

Greg, not so.

What evidence do you have about UAW "fat cats" getting a cut of anything? You are just plain wrong.

WHO'S PLAIN WRONG ?

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/BIZ/708150406

The UFCW's labor bosses are among the highest paid in the United States, with 33 officers making more than $200,000 in base salary in 2006 -- many of whom earned thousands more by drawing additional paychecks from the union's international office. The average UFCW member earns between $25,000 and $30,000 a year, with many at Michigan grocery stores earning less.

...

Ron Gajeski, recording secretary at Utica's Local 400 that has lost 5,000 members since 2001. Gajeski was paid a total of $173,904, including more than $10,000 for expenses.

...

Nearly 700 UAW officers and staff in Michigan alone have a total compensation from the union that exceeds $100,000, according to U.S. Department of Labor data.

 

[jon]

The last section of the following link posted by James is true yet many will say it is a lie.
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/flowcha...flowchart:why-aig-gets-billions-gm-gets-scorn

“Does AIG have unionized workers? Few, if any.
GM has a bunch: 64,000. Ah ha! Maybe that explains it. In fact, Senate Republicans who blocked a $10 billion emergency loan for GM and a $4 billion loan for Chrysler said they wouldn’t approve a Detroit bailout unless the United Auto Workers made much deeper concessions than they’ve already offered, essentially giving up any advantages they have over non-unionized workers in other states.
So here’s one lesson: If you want a government bailout, try to have problems that are too complicated for most people to understand. And make sure your employees are the kind who wear a suit to work every day. Once you’ve satisfied those two requirements, ask for as much as you want: The coffers are open.”

Show-me’s comments on limiting exec compensation is a critical problem in the discussion about America becoming a more mean society further pitting the super rich skillfully manipulating wealth and health from the middle class and poor. As for socialism in America or neo- Fascism, we’ve been there for a long time with outrageous welfare for the wealthy, while they pass social costs of pollution, financial engineering mistakes and wars of pride and greed to the middle class and poor.

 

[Show-me]

IMO, AIG bailout was about paying off foreign lenders and investors or they were going to punish the U.S. by selling off our bonds and/or not buying any more.

 

[James48843]

A.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/10/z1ed10top22745-union-tribune-editorial/?uniontrib

'ludicrous “job bank,” in which 14,000-plus laid-off workers are paid to sit around and do crossword puzzles'

B.

http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9514727&nav=menu1362_2
'The job bank would provide laidoff GM workers with an extra two years of pay after the plant closes.'

C.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

P.S. I'm a due-paying union member and drive a 1993 Chevy everyday !

Here are the facts today. There are NOT 14,000 people in the jobs bank-
Currently, Chrysler has 711 workers in the jobs bank, GM has 1,404 and Ford has 1,476.

"It's not gone yet but it's almost gone," Gettelfinger said. "We're on the verge of eliminating that provision." And new language in the 2007 contract stripped it to a "mere shadow of what it used to be."



Source:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081121/AUTO01/811210418/1148


What you seem to be rallying against, are programs that no longer exist as they did three or five years ago. The UAW has ALREADY terminated, compromised, or eliminated most of the things you seem to want them to give up now.

That's the whole point. The 2007 contract did away with most of those things- tens of thousands have already lost jobs, and the downsizing and transformation has already taken place.

 

[James48843]

A.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/dec/10/z1ed10top22745-union-tribune-editorial/?uniontrib

'ludicrous “job bank,” in which 14,000-plus laid-off workers are paid to sit around and do crossword puzzles'

That job bank ended in the 2005 contract and no longer exists.

Next?

B.

http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9514727&nav=menu1362_2
'The job bank would provide laidoff GM workers with an extra two years of pay after the plant closes.'

You didn't print the full quote on that. That article is about Transition Assistance payments- basically 50% of the wage, while you retrain to a different field. The Union has nothing to do with that program- that's a U.S. Dept of Labor program that gives workers 50% of their pay after they lose jobs due to North American Free Trade agreement.

And the full quote was this:
"That's especially important for workers there, since the United Auto Workers offered to eliminate the job bank in order to save the auto industry. The job bank would provide laidoff GM workers with an extra two years of pay after the plant closes."


The point of the quote is that Janesville Wisconsin workers are trying to qualify for Transition Assistance under the NAFTA Transition Assistance Prgram (50% of wages for a short period of time,) which is better than nothing at all, because the UAW offered to eliminate entirely the remaining jobs bank program if that is what would cut the deal for the loan. "That is especially important for the workers there, since the United Auto Workers offered to eliminate the jobs bank in order to save the auto industry."

C.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work

P.S. I'm a due-paying union member and drive a 1993 Chevy everyday !

The 12,000 was how many jobs were cut in 2004, and were in the jobs bank in 2005, the time of that article. Those people are all no longer employed, and no longer in the jobs bank. Today, Chrysler has 711 workers in the jobs bank, GM has 1,404 and Ford has 1,476. Those in the jobs bank get 95% of wages for up to a year, while they try to find other jobs within the big three that come open. During that time, they do not collect unemployment. If a job comes open anywhere in the country, and they turn it down, they lose that jobs bank benefit. And the UAW offered to eliminate the jobs bank, if that is what it would take to close the deal.

I am glad you pay union dues and drive a Chevrolet.

 

[James48843]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/BIZ/708150406

Potter, in his last full year as president of UFCW Local 951, made $305,000.

...

Differences in union hall pay scales are often as glaring as the pay gap between union and non-union shops. Some labor organizations lavish their officers with high salaries and generous benefit packages unavailable to the rank-and-file

...

At most Meijer stores in Michigan, top pay is nearly $20 an hour for a butcher. Most make far less. Meanwhile, Potter has a condo in Grosse Pointe Park and a home on more than seven acres in Grand Haven. He owns four cars, including a Cadillac and a Corvette, according to Michigan Secretary of State records.

...

First, UFCW is not UAW.

Second, what difference does it make to you how much the Union leader makes? It doesn't come from the company, it comes from the workers dues.

In the case of the UAW, as you pointed out, Ron Gettlefinger made $156,000. To head a Union that has over 73,000 members, 400,000 retirees, and 106,000 surviving spouses. The 73,000 members set the pay of the Union leadership through their committees and a vote of the membership (the workers). The members pay 1.15% of their pay to the Union, and what the Union does with that money- i.e. negotiations, arbitrations, travel, phones, light, heat, and yes, officer pay, all come out of that amount- which has no effect at all on the cost to the companies. Companies don't pay that money, members do.

 

[James48843]

According to the LM-2 for the UAW, last year the UAW had $323 million in income, and paid it's President - Ron Gettelfinger, just $156,000 in base salary, plus he had some reimbursed expenses, for a total of $163,000 in total compensation.

Source: U.S. Labor Department LM-2, # FILE NUMBER 000-149


Which, by the way- is about on par with those U.S. Senators, and FAR BELOW the Executives of the Auto Industry, and far below the Wall Street people.