Then go ahead and drink it, bathe in it and while you are at it feed some yellowcake to your kids. Everything on this earth comes from the earth, that doesn't mean it's good for us. Some things just can't be reduced to the most simple possible argument.
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Corn and Ethanol.
- Thread starter Show-me
- Start date
Then go ahead and drink it, bathe in it and while you are at it feed some yellowcake to your kids. Everything on this earth comes from the earth, that doesn't mean it's good for us. Some things just can't be reduced to the most simple possible argument.
Viva_La_Migra
Well-known member
Lighten up Francis!
Much of modern life has been made possible thanks to that ugly black gooey stuff. I like the idea of moving beyond oil to alternative fuels, but corn based ethanol still needs that ugly black gooey stuff to be created.
I love yellow cake! Especially with some dark chocolate frosting. Mmmmm!
Some people don't understand or appreciate sarcasm.:blink:
James48843
Well-known member
As much a part of the earth as water?
Yeh, I remember that.
I remember the under-water part.....
Can you say BP?
nnuut
Moderator | TSP Legend
Biofuels Also Create Dangerous Spills
Submitted by CDAngelo on Thu, 05/06/2010 - 10:24
With the recent oil rig catastrophe and subsequent spill in the Gulf of Mexico, the biofuels industry is claiming it produces a cleaner alternative. But biofuels can produce environmentally harmful spills as well. Biofuel spills, leaks and fires have occurred across the nation and have resulted in pollution and aquatic life die-off. Growing biofuel production, a lack of government oversight, and biofuel producers' unawareness of pollution regulations means that spills are likely to increase in frequency.
Q: How do biofuel spills occur?
A: Biofuel spills and fires usually occur from leaks and accidents in biofuels transport, which primarily occurs via trucks and trains. Spills also occur through discharges of byproduct pollutants from biofuel plants.
Q: What happens when biofuels spills occur?
A: Biofuels, particularly ethanol, are highly toxic to water ecosystems and have caused massive kills of aquatic life. A 2008 Missouri spill of biofuel byproducts leaked into waterways and killed an entire population of endangered mussels.[2] A 2009 ethanol spill caused Iowa's largest fish-kill to date[3]. Additionally, as a highly-flammable fuel, fires and explosions can and do occur with spillage[4]. Further study of long-term effects is warranted: a GroundWater study found that biofuels spills have not been well-studied[5]. http://www.foe.org/biofuels-also-create-dangerous-spills
Submitted by CDAngelo on Thu, 05/06/2010 - 10:24
With the recent oil rig catastrophe and subsequent spill in the Gulf of Mexico, the biofuels industry is claiming it produces a cleaner alternative. But biofuels can produce environmentally harmful spills as well. Biofuel spills, leaks and fires have occurred across the nation and have resulted in pollution and aquatic life die-off. Growing biofuel production, a lack of government oversight, and biofuel producers' unawareness of pollution regulations means that spills are likely to increase in frequency.
Q: How do biofuel spills occur?
A: Biofuel spills and fires usually occur from leaks and accidents in biofuels transport, which primarily occurs via trucks and trains. Spills also occur through discharges of byproduct pollutants from biofuel plants.
Q: What happens when biofuels spills occur?
A: Biofuels, particularly ethanol, are highly toxic to water ecosystems and have caused massive kills of aquatic life. A 2008 Missouri spill of biofuel byproducts leaked into waterways and killed an entire population of endangered mussels.[2] A 2009 ethanol spill caused Iowa's largest fish-kill to date[3]. Additionally, as a highly-flammable fuel, fires and explosions can and do occur with spillage[4]. Further study of long-term effects is warranted: a GroundWater study found that biofuels spills have not been well-studied[5]. http://www.foe.org/biofuels-also-create-dangerous-spills
nnuut
Moderator | TSP Legend
January 8, 2010 9:40 AM
Ethanol Pollution Surprise
(AP) Factories that convert corn into the gasoline additive ethanol are releasing carbon monoxide, methanol and some carcinogens at levels "many times greater" than they promised, the government says.
In an April 24 letter to the industry's trade group, the Environmental Protection Agency said the problem is common to "most, if not all, ethanol facilities."
Officials in EPA's Chicago office, which oversees nearly half the industry's plants, are planning a meeting with company officials in five states to insist on changes to reduce the emissions.
"So far they've been quite amenable. They're coming in. They're aware of the issues," said Cynthia King, an EPA attorney.
The government's crackdown comes while the ethanol industry presses to significantly expand production as many states phase out another widely used fuel additive, MTBE, because it is polluting water supplies. Last week the Senate passed legislation at the behest of farm groups that would more than double ethanol use by 2010.
"One of the benefits of engaging the industry on this is that they are in a very aggressive growth mode right now," said George Czerniak, chief of the air enforcement and compliance assurance branch in EPA's Chicago office.
Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) being released by the ethanol plants include formaldehyde and acetic acid, both carcinogens. Methanol, although not known to cause cancer, also is classified as a hazardous pollutant.
The fumes are produced when fermented corn mash is dried for sale as a supplement for livestock feed. Devices known as thermal oxidizers can be attached to the plants to burn off the dangerous gases.
Recent tests have found VOC emissions ranging from 120 tons a year, for some of the smallest plants, up to 1,000 tons annually, agency officials said. It isn't known whether the chemicals are hazardous to nearby residents, they said.
Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/03/tech/main508006.shtml#ixzz1Q9PJdTX7
nnuut
Moderator | TSP Legend
Ethanol is NOT the way to go for many reasons::nuts:
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN
Want to Reduce Air Pollution? Don't Rely on Ethanol NecessarilyFueling the automobile fleet primarily with ethanol rather than gasoline might increase air pollution, a new study finds
By David Biello | April 18, 2007
UNCLEAR SKIES: Burning ethanol fuel instead of gasoline in cars could contribute to more smog, according to a new study from Stanford University.Image: © ISTOCKPHOTO.COM/DAN ECKERT
Ethanol as a fuel offers a host of potential benefits, according to its supporters. It can be grown and refined primarily in the U.S., whether made from corn, switchgrass or cellulose. It is already being used as a fuel additive—to help gasoline burn more completely and, thus, cut down on air pollution. And, because it is made from plants that pull carbon dioxide from the air, it does not add additional greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, which are driving climate change. But a new study shows that it will not help clear the nation's skies of smog; on the contrary, it could increase the levels of that dangerous pollution.Environmental engineer Mark Jacobson of Stanford University used a computer model to assess how the air pollution in the U.S. would react if vehicles remained primarily fueled by gasoline in 2020 or if the fleet transferred to a fuel that was a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, so-called E85. Under the latter scenario, levels of the cancer-causing agents benzene and butadiene dropped, whereas those of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde rose: In other words, it was a wash.
Because burning ethanol can potentially add more smog-forming pollution to the atmosphere, however, it can also exacerbate the ill effects of such air pollution. According to Jacobson, burning ethanol adds 22 percent more hydrocarbons to the atmosphere than does burning gasoline and this would lead to a nearly two parts per billion increase in tropospheric ozone. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=reduce-air-pollution-do-not-rely-on-ethanol
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN
Want to Reduce Air Pollution? Don't Rely on Ethanol NecessarilyFueling the automobile fleet primarily with ethanol rather than gasoline might increase air pollution, a new study finds
By David Biello | April 18, 2007
UNCLEAR SKIES: Burning ethanol fuel instead of gasoline in cars could contribute to more smog, according to a new study from Stanford University.Image: © ISTOCKPHOTO.COM/DAN ECKERTEthanol as a fuel offers a host of potential benefits, according to its supporters. It can be grown and refined primarily in the U.S., whether made from corn, switchgrass or cellulose. It is already being used as a fuel additive—to help gasoline burn more completely and, thus, cut down on air pollution. And, because it is made from plants that pull carbon dioxide from the air, it does not add additional greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, which are driving climate change. But a new study shows that it will not help clear the nation's skies of smog; on the contrary, it could increase the levels of that dangerous pollution.Environmental engineer Mark Jacobson of Stanford University used a computer model to assess how the air pollution in the U.S. would react if vehicles remained primarily fueled by gasoline in 2020 or if the fleet transferred to a fuel that was a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, so-called E85. Under the latter scenario, levels of the cancer-causing agents benzene and butadiene dropped, whereas those of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde rose: In other words, it was a wash.
Because burning ethanol can potentially add more smog-forming pollution to the atmosphere, however, it can also exacerbate the ill effects of such air pollution. According to Jacobson, burning ethanol adds 22 percent more hydrocarbons to the atmosphere than does burning gasoline and this would lead to a nearly two parts per billion increase in tropospheric ozone. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=reduce-air-pollution-do-not-rely-on-ethanol
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Buster
Well-known member
Maybe I should spill a little Ethanoil on my belly..I need to destroy a little of that Mussel:laugh:
Hmmm, I'd say my whole post was, like yours, an absurd exaggeration of reality; which, more or less, defines sarcasm.
Nor am I am big proponent of corn based ethanol. Yet relying on black gooey is a status quo that literally needs to change, for countless reasons. We are a massive agricultural nation, looking towards leveraging that asset may be intelligent, even if the direct benefits aren't readily apparent. Babies don't run marathons.
And if you read the whole story you find the conclusion to be quite logical
"Ethanol advocates agree. "Ethanol is not the silver bullet," says Matt Hartwig, a spokesperson for the Renewable Fuels Association, an industry group. "It's a very important tool in the toolbox to address energy security and to address the issues around global warming and the environment. But it's not the only answer." And Jacobson's study may have revealed one of the downsides to this alternative fuel."
An additional 200 deaths due to increased ground level ozone is a mere drop in the bucket relative to the number of deaths caused by sustaining our current system. And let's not forget about the fact that relying on oil requires stability in the middle east; How many lives and additional barrels have been spent on those endeavors.
Regarding other articles:
Ethanol may pose some hazards...Is working on a drill rig safe?
It's great how the fossil fuel apologists are so patently anti science when it comes broad consensus that burning fuels (of any kind but specifically fossil fuels) is causing adverse affects to our climate system yet latch on any study indicating possible pitfalls of alternative energies. Sure, we should study the effects of what we are doing, but please folks, keep it in perspective.
If you think the status quo is working, you live in a different world than me.
James48843
Well-known member
James48843
Well-known member
And this one:
There is no such thing as absolute safety in any field of energy production. It is what it is. You can work hard to try and reduce injuries and damage. But it will never be perfect.
There is no such thing as absolute safety in any field of energy production. It is what it is. You can work hard to try and reduce injuries and damage. But it will never be perfect.
James48843
Well-known member
Now THERE you go. Or maybe do the same with oil- produce oil from mashing up people- cut out the middlemen and 1,000,000 years of compression underground.
James48843
Well-known member
nnuut
Moderator | TSP Legend
Video:
“Completely Wasteful”: Steven Rattner Slams Govt. Support for Corn Ethanol
By Aaron Task
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...57357.html ?sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
“Completely Wasteful”: Steven Rattner Slams Govt. Support for Corn Ethanol
By Aaron Task
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...57357.html ?sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
nnuut
Moderator | TSP Legend
July 8, 2011, 12:01 a.m. EDT
Ethanol aid end won’t hurt corn for long
By Myra P. Saefong, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Corn prices have dropped around 15% since mid-June, when the U.S. Senate voted to end two tax breaks for the ethanol industry, and at first glance, the move makes sense — just don’t expect it to last for long.
After all, the federal mandate for ethanol in vehicle fuel is still in effect and corn remains the main feedstock for producing ethanol in the United States.
“Ethanol has been the real inflator in corn prices, of this I have no doubt,” said Christopher Ecclestone, a strategist at Hallgarten & Company LLC.
U.S. energy production on the rise.
Energy production in America is on the rise, which is positively affecting the U.S. chemical industry.
Corn prices have clearly taken a dive since June 16, when the Senate voted to put an end to a 45-cent-a-gallon subsidy for ethanol blenders, known as the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit, and a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. Read about the Senate vote.
Corn futures have recently traded around $6.15 a bushel on the Chicago Board of Trade, down from about $7.26 on June 25.
For now, the House hasn’t passed a bill to end the ethanol subsidy, but the subsidy is poised to expire at the end of this year.
Ecclestone believes it would be a “no-brainer action in these days of budget deficits” to cut the subsidies.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ethanol-aid-end-wont-hurt-corn-for-long-2011-07-08
Ethanol aid end won’t hurt corn for long
By Myra P. Saefong, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Corn prices have dropped around 15% since mid-June, when the U.S. Senate voted to end two tax breaks for the ethanol industry, and at first glance, the move makes sense — just don’t expect it to last for long.
After all, the federal mandate for ethanol in vehicle fuel is still in effect and corn remains the main feedstock for producing ethanol in the United States.
“Ethanol has been the real inflator in corn prices, of this I have no doubt,” said Christopher Ecclestone, a strategist at Hallgarten & Company LLC.
U.S. energy production on the rise.
Energy production in America is on the rise, which is positively affecting the U.S. chemical industry.
Corn prices have clearly taken a dive since June 16, when the Senate voted to put an end to a 45-cent-a-gallon subsidy for ethanol blenders, known as the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit, and a 54-cent-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. Read about the Senate vote.
Corn futures have recently traded around $6.15 a bushel on the Chicago Board of Trade, down from about $7.26 on June 25.
For now, the House hasn’t passed a bill to end the ethanol subsidy, but the subsidy is poised to expire at the end of this year.
Ecclestone believes it would be a “no-brainer action in these days of budget deficits” to cut the subsidies.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ethanol-aid-end-wont-hurt-corn-for-long-2011-07-08
goforit
Member
so i just caught up on the the conversation and i see it has grown some really nice legs. but i was thinking how we have all gone back and forth about ethanal/corn/oil/switchgrass/btu pergallon.... i may be wrong because i have not had time to really research BUT to make ethanol out of anything doesn't it take an enormous amount of fresh water to produce a very little bit of ethanol?
if i had my choice for which NATURAL resource i would like to keep the longest it would be in this order
FRESH WATER (the body needs water in its make up of genes) CORN(the body needs food to stay alive also) OIL( or any other thing i can burn to stay warm)
if i had my choice for which NATURAL resource i would like to keep the longest it would be in this order
FRESH WATER (the body needs water in its make up of genes) CORN(the body needs food to stay alive also) OIL( or any other thing i can burn to stay warm)
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