Corepuncher's Account Talk

Uptrend,

You'll be doing all of us a favor by keeping updates with optionman as to the best TSP fund to concentrate on, especially until the TSP board graciously opens up a proper fund to deal with currently inaccessible sectors or areas to invest in. Tia.

When inflation hits the market will have asset revaluation and therefore sectors of the market will rise (oil, coal, gold, industrials). Sound confusing? Not really. Commodities are safe havens. As far as TSP, G will be a loser due to inflation, F should be a loser due to higher yields required for Fed to sell bonds, and selling by investors due to low yields that are surpassed by inflation, S should be a loser because less commodities in the index, C might be ok as 1/3 of index is based on energy and related, and I should be the winner due to the cascading and weak dollar. Also companies will have pressure to make parts etc overseas, and so I index will track greater productivity, while US former union workers remain un or under employed.

So, just thinking about it, I should be the winner. Perhaps Optionman is on to something. He got a head start!
 
RunningFool --

(Oh, by the way, I'm somewhat of a runner myself; 4-6 miles per run on average, 3-4 times a week -- it's great, isn't it?)...

Anyway, I have often thought the same way you do. If/when we REALLY tank, and not only is our economy toast but our government "insolvent," is G REALLY a safe haven? I think not. From that perspective, what DO we do with our $$? Sure, "buy gold" makes some sense, but we don't have that option -- at least not directly. I guess uptrend makes some good points, in that C is the most heavily invested in commodities of all of our options...

Steve
 
Thank you.

I have often wondered if the economy falls off the cliff, will it do any good to be in the G fund as the dollar will be worthless. Where can you invest to survive the economic Armageddon. Maybe the I fund would be better or take all your money and buy up a couple of years of food.:confused:
 
If it gets bad enough, our TSP's will be taken as a matter of national security. So in the end, none of it may matter. Worst case of course!

Also, I have heard arguments that the dollar could paradoxically RISE instead of fall, as it remains strong on a relative basis in the event of a world collapse.
 
RunningFool --

(Oh, by the way, I'm somewhat of a runner myself; 4-6 miles per run on average, 3-4 times a week -- it's great, isn't it?)...

Anyway, I have often thought the same way you do. If/when we REALLY tank, and not only is our economy toast but our government "insolvent," is G REALLY a safe haven? I think not. From that perspective, what DO we do with our $$? Sure, "buy gold" makes some sense, but we don't have that option -- at least not directly. I guess uptrend makes some good points, in that C is the most heavily invested in commodities of all of our options...

Steve

The I fund is what Pschiff would recomend, of course you will need a fork lift to haul all that cheap amercian cash around, or maybe the yuan will be are currency by then...with the great leader MAOs picture to look at:cheesy:
 
Oooh, might be right re the I fund or yuan, but I'd rather not look at Mao. I have a friend grew up under Mao, and have met others. They won't badmouth him even now, even the ones who are American citizens, (they seem to have a group conciousness of putting the past behind them as a society and moving on without playing the blame game-they were all caught in the nightmare together),

BUT they also told me of the 6mill who died of starvation in the 60s because of his bad economic policies, and they told me survival meant single mothers (fathers in prison for political reasons) went out at night and stole food from neighbors (gardens presumably) to keep their kids alive. And I've read of cannibalism in remote villages inland during that era. No, I don't want to look at Mao's picture on the currency I use.
 
I'm emboldened to see that others, including life-long professional economists and even the Federal Reserve Bank of San Fran, come to the EXACT same conclusion I have.

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/05/san-francisco-fed-concerned-about.html

Friday, May 22, 2009

San Francisco Fed Concerned About Consumer Deleveraging

Posted by Tyler Durden at 6:15 PM
One of the core macroeconomic themes that Zero Hedge has been expounding on since inception, which mirrors some of the major concerns of David Rosenberg, has been the evaporation of consumer wealth, income and equity as a function of both declining stock and real asset values and persistently high consumer debt. In an economic paper, the San Francisco Federal Reserve confirms that these concerns are not unfounded, and could be the very core of the processes that undermine the administration's attempts to restore economic growth.

While the administration is doing all it can through various media conduits to imprint the idea that inflation is all but a guaranteed reality at this point, so that consumers begin borrowing at an expansive pace yet again, consumer leveraging is exactly the process that has commenced unwinding, and the obvious impact on the personal saving rate which has been growing at a dramatic pace, has been visible throughout the economy. And as the consumer deleverages additionally, deflation is a certainty, as the combined impact of asset value decline and associated leverage flow through the economy, further depressed prices of goods and services. The four charts below from the Fed's release strike at the heart of the administration's faulty attempt to relever the US consumer.



Unfortunately for Bernanke and Geithner, the deleveraging process has commenced, and regardless of how many treasuries are issued, and how much additional debt the U.S. incurs, the demand side for credit is just not there, sticking banks with basements full of shrinkwrapped packages of hundred dollar bills, that will sit dusty and unused for years. The only immediate impact is that at some point in the not too distant future, the U.S. will need to print bonds to satisfy just the interest payments on these very bonds, which is an unsustainable state and only has one outcome.

In a very amusing section from the release, the San Fran Fed is discussing the financial behaviour of the consumer, when in fact the very same words are 100% applicable to the U.S. Treasury itself:
More than 20 years ago, economist Hyman Minsky (1986) proposed a “financial instability hypothesis.” He argued that prosperous times can often induce borrowers to accumulate debt beyond their ability to repay out of current income, thus leading to financial crises and severe economic contractions.

Until recently, U.S. households were accumulating debt at a rapid pace, allowing consumption to grow faster than income. An environment of easy credit facilitated this process, fueled further by rising prices of stocks and housing, which provided collateral for even more borrowing.The value of that collateral has since dropped dramatically, leaving many households in a precarious financial position, particularly in light of economic uncertainty that threatens their jobs.

Going forward, it seems probable that many U.S. households will reduce their debt. If accomplished through increased saving, the deleveraging process could result in a substantial and prolonged slowdown in consumer spending relative to pre-recession growth rates. Alternatively, if accomplished through some form of default on existing debt, such as real estate short sales, foreclosures, or bankruptcy, deleveraging could involve significant costs for consumers, including tax liabilities on forgiven debt, legal fees, and lower credit scores. Moreover, this form of deleveraging would simply shift the problem onto banks that hold these loans as assets on their balance sheets. Either way, the process of household deleveraging will not be painless.
The last paragraph is probably the most lucid explanation of the conundrum the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are in currently. And all that Bernanke and Geithner are attempting to do is not just make sure these very banks can survive another day with trillions of worthless loans on their books, but do all they can to relend them once again into private (consumer and hedge fund) hands.

This approach is flawed and as time passes and the consumer savings rate increases, the bifurcation between the Fed's plans and reality will only become more evident, with the cost being increasing deflation, while the U.S. accumulates higher and higher sovereign debt. The combined impact of both processes could end up having a devastating geopolitical impact on the United States.
 
Not very much I must say in all candor.


Bman,

Im a believer http://www.monkees.net/midi/believe2.mid


I'm a Believer

By Neil Diamond with some changes:D

The recover is only true in fairy tales
Meant for someone else but not for me.
Gov was out to get me
That's the way it IS.
Disappointment haunts all my dreams.

Then saw it crash (the market), now I'm a believer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
Got no cash, I'm a believer!
I couldn't leave It (TSP) if I tried.

I thought investing was more or less a given thing,
Seems the more I gave the less I got.
What's the use in tryin'?
All you get is pain.
When I needed sunshine I got rain.

Then saw it crash (the market), now I'm a believer
Not a trace of doubt in my mind.
I'm broke, I'm a believer!
I couldn't leave TSP if I tried.
 
Pschiffdicpal --

Nice! Very creative...

Steve

Birch --

Any particular reason you would give for rejecting CP's post altogether? You don't see any good points raised, at all? I don't know, to me it's "GAME OVER" folks, in terms of the growth, and the ability to spend, that we've all gotten used to. The incredible bull we were on for basically 25 years (since the early to mid 80s) is OVER. The sooner we all realize that our unprecedented growth was not REAL, was unsustainable, driven by DEBT -- i.e. borrowing money to be earned 5, 10, 20 years down the road and spending it NOW. Well, the chickens have come home to roost. The money is spent; now we all owe it. Those rates of growth are simply unsustainable without further assumption of debt (which would, even if it could happen, be unsustainable). But, it CAN'T happen. Folks can't afford additional debt. No one WANTS to borrow now. That's why the Fed's attempts to keep rates low is having little effect. You can put rates at 1% -- if most people are already up to the gills in debt, folks are not looking to borrow even more. Consumers, most businesses, AND GOVERNMENT are simply STRAPPED with WAY TOO MUCH debt. There simply is no more ability or desire to pull YET MORE future earnings forward, to spend now. And consumer spending is the only thing that would lead to the kind of economic recovery the permabulls are counting on. Instead, the economy is in for a long, sustained period of hampered growth -- or, more likely, contraction. Birch -- the old paradigm does not work anymore. You can look at all the historical tendencies and stuff that you want to. It is not representative anymore. Maybe someday, it will be, but probably not before most of us reach retirement. I truly believe this; we are in desperate need of big-time CONTRACTION. The mathematics of the situation will force this contraction, whether we desire it or not. Contraction in consumer spending, contraction in the lifestyle that we have all gotten used to, and thus contraction in our economy and GDP. Anyone running TSP calculators to figure their appropriate level of savings, and are assuming 10 or 11% growth, on average, from now to retirement, better think again. I think single digit growth is more like it, and I doubt market returns in the next 15 years even beat inflation. Moral of my little story here? We all better be saving more than we ever thought we'd need to, if we want to have a relatively easy time, financially, during retirement.

Birch -- can't you step out of your "looking at past performance to determine future results" myopia for a minute, and look at the big picture? We have overspent, we are in massive debt, we have taken a very risky -- and at times a greedy and even a dishonest approach to acquiring wealth and material trinkets beyond what our base level of earnings would allow, and now we can't pay it (we being the consumer, the business world, AND the government). We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg, IMO, in terms of defaults, bankrupcies, foreclosures, etc. The piper will be paid, and it won't be pretty. Can't you FEEL the imbalance in the system? Again, to use an earlier analogy that I posted awhile back, the deck of the Titanic we are sailing on contines listing heavily to one side, but we simply continue to ask the band to play louder -- so that we can dance some more, attempting to ignore our looming fate...

Steve
 
Last edited:
Steve - all I can say is you must really love Jimmy Carter. When I transfer my oceanic account to BAC Investments I plan to utilize margin debt to the tune of multihundreds of thousands and only pay 3% on the loan. I will use my already acquired stocks as collateral and buy myself into happiness. The bull market has a long way to go yet this year and many years into the future. I will bet you that new home sales and existing home sales were positive in April - that'll be worth a few hundred Dow points next week.
 
Birch -- I don't follow the Jimmy Carter thing, I don't know anything about -- nor have ever heard of -- "oceanic accounts," and I don't know much about what "utilizing margin debt" means.

But, as usual, you completely ignored my points. I will say that you are a very difficult person to have a discussion with. I am a very "point and counterpoint" type of person; debating with you however is like trying to grab hold of a greased pig. Reminds me of debating with my wife -- her perspective, to me, is always "out of left field," and "not on point," though I'm sure it makes complete sense to her. I just can't follow that type of discussion. I like to raise a point, discuss the point directly, and then move to the next point. Obviously, you are different, which is perfectly fine. All I can say is, I hope you reach whatever financial goals you hope to attain; but buying stocks on borrowed money, especially in this market, seems to me to be a recipe for disaster in general.

Good luck!

Steve
 
Steve - all I can say is you must really love Jimmy Carter. When I transfer my oceanic account to BAC Investments I plan to utilize margin debt to the tune of multihundreds of thousands and only pay 3% on the loan. I will use my already acquired stocks as collateral and buy myself into happiness. The bull market has a long way to go yet this year and many years into the future. I will bet you that new home sales and existing home sales were positive in April - that'll be worth a few hundred Dow points next week.

Hi Birch :)

The Next Wave of Foreclosures
http://seekingalpha.com/article/139030-the-next-wave-of-foreclosures
 
40+ months to go before the big wave of resets is over, and an even longer period of time until the shockwaves dampen out. This suggests the financial system will continue to be stressed for years to come, just from mortgages.

Yes and at this point mortgages are just one tiny piece of the worldwide situation.
 
Heres one for ya all.


[SIZE=-1]1938[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Nov 17, 1938 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Gains in Post-Election Upsurge Canceled in Late Selling Flood. Sharp Relapse on Stock Mart. Gains in Post-Election. Upsurge Canceledin: Late Selling Flood. Market on Page 19. NEW YORK, Nov. 16. (A')- The stock market took a sharp tumble today and returned to. the line it held ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Sharp Relapse on Stock Mart ($$) - Related web pages
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/399753401.html?dids=399753401:399753401&FMT=CITE&FMTS= CITE:AI&date=Nov+17%2C+1938&author=&pub=Los+Angeles...Stock...[/SIZE]
 
Japans lost decade......

[SIZE=-1]1989[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jun 13, 1989 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]By FLOYD NORRIS. LEAD: ALMOST unnoticed, the Japanese stock market, heretofore the wonder of the 1980's, has started to underperform other stock markets. The soaring dollar is part of the problem for the Japanese, but there is more to it than that. ALMOST unnoticed, the Japanese stock ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Market Place; Japanese Stocks: Laggards of '89 - Related web pages[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0717FE385A0C708DDDAF0894D1484D81[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1990[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Mar 21, 1990 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]... ''The Japanese stock market has never been more at risk than it is now,'' said George Noble, manager of the Fidelity Overseas Fund, which has reduced ... For years, Japanese stocks have looked expensive relative to stocks in Europe or America, measured by traditional indicators like ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Market Place; Japan's Yen Strategy May Weaken... - Related web pages[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F3061FFD3E5E0C728EDDAA0894D8494D81[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1992[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Apr 9, 1992 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]By JAMES STERNGOLD,. The plunge in Japanese share prices continued today, with the market's leading index closing below the 17000 level in more than five years. The Nikkei index of 225 issues fell 577.38 points, or 3.4 percent, to close at 16598.15. This is the third consecutive day ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Japanese Stocks Plunge In Third Day of Turmoil - Related web pages[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10613F83D550C7A8CDDAD0894DA494D81[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1995[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jun 13, 1995 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The average Japanese stock pays less than 1 percent in annual dividends. Last week brought word that the insurers sold more stocks in the first ... That the worries are coming years after the Japanese stock market bubble burst is a testament to the belief that the Japanese Government ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Market Place; Japan's banks need shoring up if... - Related web pages[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60617FE385A0C708DDDAF0894DD494D81[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1997[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Apr 10, 1997 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]By FLOYD NORRIS. From the viewpoint of an American investor, the Japanese stock market has plunged to a four-year low. The Nikkei index of 225 issues, Japan's most prominent stock index, fell 318.33 points, or 1.77 percent, to 17703.37 yesterday, even as the dollar was hitting its ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Japan Stocks a Bit of a Bust for US Investors - Related web pages[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0612FE39580C738DDDAD0894DF494D81[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1999[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jun 15, 1999 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]By EDWARD [/SIZE]


Maybe this is were we need to look not the last great Depression?
 
One more Japan thing....


[SIZE=-1]1989[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Mar 10, 1989 - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Author:. Share prices have been sliding on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, the world's largest, and while nobody is predicting a crash, economists are expressing some concern. For one thing, the so-called Recruit stock scandal, which has touched the highest levels of Japan's government and ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]From Japan stock slide may be tax-related ($$) - Related web pages
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/24691229.html?dids=24691229:24691229&FMT=ABS& FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Mar+10%2C+1989&author...Sluis...Japan+stock...[/SIZE]
 
Pschiffdicpal --

Nice! Very creative...

Steve

Birch --

Any particular reason you would give for rejecting CP's post altogether? You don't see any good points raised, at all? I don't know, to me it's "GAME OVER" folks, in terms of the growth, and the ability to spend, that we've all gotten used to. The incredible bull we were on for basically 25 years (since the early to mid 80s) is OVER. The sooner we all realize that our unprecedented growth was not REAL, was unsustainable, driven by DEBT -- i.e. borrowing money to be earned 5, 10, 20 years down the road and spending it NOW. Well, the chickens have come home to roost. The money is spent; now we all owe it. Those rates of growth are simply unsustainable without further assumption of debt (which would, even if it could happen, be unsustainable). But, it CAN'T happen. Folks can't afford additional debt. No one WANTS to borrow now. That's why the Fed's attempts to keep rates low is having little effect. You can put rates at 1% -- if most people are already up to the gills in debt, folks are not looking to borrow even more. Consumers, most businesses, AND GOVERNMENT are simply STRAPPED with WAY TOO MUCH debt. There simply is no more ability or desire to pull YET MORE future earnings forward, to spend now. And consumer spending is the only thing that would lead to the kind of economic recovery the permabulls are counting on. Instead, the economy is in for a long, sustained period of hampered growth -- or, more likely, contraction. Birch -- the old paradigm does not work anymore. You can look at all the historical tendencies and stuff that you want to. It is not representative anymore. Maybe someday, it will be, but probably not before most of us reach retirement. I truly believe this; we are in desperate need of big-time CONTRACTION. The mathematics of the situation will force this contraction, whether we desire it or not. Contraction in consumer spending, contraction in the lifestyle that we have all gotten used to, and thus contraction in our economy and GDP. Anyone running TSP calculators to figure their appropriate level of savings, and are assuming 10 or 11% growth, on average, from now to retirement, better think again. I think single digit growth is more like it, and I doubt market returns in the next 15 years even beat inflation. Moral of my little story here? We all better be saving more than we ever thought we'd need to, if we want to have a relatively easy time, financially, during retirement.

Birch -- can't you step out of your "looking at past performance to determine future results" myopia for a minute, and look at the big picture? We have overspent, we are in massive debt, we have taken a very risky -- and at times a greedy and even a dishonest approach to acquiring wealth and material trinkets beyond what our base level of earnings would allow, and now we can't pay it (we being the consumer, the business world, AND the government). We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg, IMO, in terms of defaults, bankrupcies, foreclosures, etc. The piper will be paid, and it won't be pretty. Can't you FEEL the imbalance in the system? Again, to use an earlier analogy that I posted awhile back, the deck of the Titanic we are sailing on contines listing heavily to one side, but we simply continue to ask the band to play louder -- so that we can dance some more, attempting to ignore our looming fate...

Steve


your like this song toO

the US Markets http://www.lyricsfreak.com/v/vapors/turning+japanese_20143701.html
ARE
turning japanese
I think Im turning japanese
I really think so
Turning japanese
I think Im turning japanese
I really think so
Im turning japanese
I think Im turning japanese
I really think so
Turning japanese
I think Im turning japanese
I really think so
 
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