Arizona Immigration law

[Steadygain]

Arizona immigration law is spreading to other states.

I hope this is TRUE.

I seriously believe AZ and other states should strongly and actively deal with all situations that make them especially vulnerable.

I wholly believe we need this kind of ACTION more than anything else. States are expected to deal with their own 'budgets' and in so many ways are expected to demonstate independence.

On this note I all the more believe the President should do everything possible to show His SUPPORT and Encouragement.

Want to add real quick that I was kind of crazy yesterday and LADY,

I'm sorry if I said anything awkward - or embarassing - was just being silly and fun.

 

[Frixxxx]

Tom,

Please invoke the rule of closure in regards to Godwin's Law.

Thank you!

 

[burrocrat]

what were these illegals doing at a tea party?

i would like to retract that statement. it is not right to assume everyone attending an immigration rally is an illegal, anymore than it is right to portray people attending tea parties as bigoted radicals.

 

[Minnow]

Yes, Minnow, whatever you do in Real Life is obviously law enforcement related. So you know that a consensual encounter would quickly become a detainment if you tried to leave the law enforcement officer's presence before answering his/her questions. But that very thin line between consent and detainment is there until the cop takes your papers.

Absolutely.

You and I are not disagreeing about the concepts nor are you and I disagreeing about the theories behind these concepts. James and I are disagreeing about both -- but you keep saying he is right about this and that he is right about that.

James has started out with a faulty premise. He has stated that he believes that law enforcement should be allowed to do their job -- enforce the law. Then he says that law enforcement should not be allowed to even "stop" without probable cause. You see why I disagree so strongly with this, right?

Those two points are incompatible both in theory and in reality. Here's why:

A government has to be able to enforce the law. If one appointed to enforce the law is not allowed to "stop" (read: investigate a possible violation of the law) anyone without probable cause, then the government loses its ability to enforce the law.

Now, James believes that a government should be able to enforce the law, but how? Without police? If he believes that police are needed to enforce the law, how are they supposed to enforce that law? There are only two choices: 1) police can only stop, detain, and arrest when the police eyewitness a crime themselves -- only that gives probable cause; 2) every police officer that stops is presumed by the government to already have probable cause.

The first option does not work. If a cop can only stop someone after he sees them commit a crime, then what good is that cop? That cop is no different than any citizen. He is not enforcing the law, he is merely reacting to an event or series of events.

The second option is called suspending the writ of habeus corpus. That's what totalitarian regimes do. That's what countries going through civil war do. That's what countries at war do. That is NOT what the Arizona immigration law is doing.

In American, now, you have the right to be heard in court. A cop is not presumed to be correct. But he/she is allowed to do their job subject to judicial scrutiny. I wouldn't have it any other way and I wouldn't have a government based on James' two incompatable theories.

 

[James48843]

Minnow- maybe I am using the wrong term when I say probable cause- when in fact I mean articularable facts.


The bottom line of what I am trying to say is that I do not believe a police officer should be able to stop and question anyone, unless they have a reason to stop and question that person. And that reason cannot be simply that they think the guy or gal looks like he or she needs to be stopped.

Anytime a police officer asks a question, the person has a choice. They can answer the question, or they can ask if they are free to go. As long as the police officer is asking the questions, the person is NOT free to go. That's what I was trying to say.

One can investigate, and do a great deal to ascertain the facts, long before having to ask any particular person questions. In my mind, even stopping someone, without knowledge that something is wrong/a crime has been committed, etc, is beyond what I am comfortable with. In my book - a stop should not be made, a person not "held back from being able to do whatever they want to do", without some kind of cause. Probable cause might be the wrong word for me to use- sorry. But I think "proof", or "witness statements", or "evidence" of some kind is appropriate.

Just my 2 cents.

My opinion- everyone else is welcome to have one too.

 

[Warrenlm]

A question, since some members here may know. I keep reading/hearing about large sums paid by individuals to be smuggled into the USA. Sums that I would think all the borrowing back home would still fall short of funding. Where do they get the $10,000, $20,000 to pay the smugglers? Are they really able to gather that amount in Mexico (or China, or___) to pay for transport in advance? It would seem to be so high as to impoverish their hometowns. Or are they generally indentured servants ala the 1700s?

 

[Minnow]

Minnow- maybe I am using the wrong term when I say probable cause- when in fact I mean articularable facts.

I think you mean articulable but that's OK... I won't be the spelling police too.

The bottom line of what I am trying to say is that I do not believe a police officer should be able to stop and question anyone, unless they have a reason to stop and question that person. And that reason cannot be simply that they think the guy or gal looks like he or she needs to be stopped.

If you read everything I wrote carefully, this was what I was saying.
The Arizona Law does not broaden an officer's ability to do this. If, during an encounter, a subject's citizenship comes into question, then the officer is allowed to question further.

Anytime a police officer asks a question, the person has a choice. They can answer the question, or they can ask if they are free to go. As long as the police officer is asking the questions, the person is NOT free to go. That's what I was trying to say.

Again, I don't think just asking questions means that the person is not free to go. During a vehicle stop, yes. But that "detention" started pretty much at the moment the blue and red lights went on. Other encounters, well, as they say, "that depends." This is where good law enforcement interview techniques come in.

One can investigate, and do a great deal to ascertain the facts, long before having to ask any particular person questions. In my mind, even stopping someone, without knowledge that something is wrong/a crime has been committed, etc, is beyond what I am comfortable with. In my book - a stop should not be made, a person not "held back from being able to do whatever they want to do", without some kind of cause. Probable cause might be the wrong word for me to use- sorry. But I think "proof", or "witness statements", or "evidence" of some kind is appropriate.

Now you're beginning to see the light. (Although, proof, evidence, are terms for the court, not for the street). This is the world we live in. Now you begin to see the difficulties in doing good law enforcement but that is what it is. You gotta be able to give "articulable facts" which, if a case goes all the way to court, can be put under judicial scrutiny.

The Arizona Law, as it is written, does not change a thing.
Just my 2 cents.

My opinion- everyone else is welcome to have one too.

Now, would you go and tell Shakira I want to have a good one-on-one "discussion" to enlighten her.

 

[Minnow]

A question, since some members here may know. I keep reading/hearing about large sums paid by individuals to be smuggled into the USA. Sums that I would think all the borrowing back home would still fall short of funding. Where do they get the $10,000, $20,000 to pay the smugglers? Are they really able to gather that amount in Mexico (or China, or___) to pay for transport in advance? It would seem to be so high as to impoverish their hometowns. Or are they generally indentured servants ala the 1700s?

There's a price and cost structure and, I hate to say this, it depends.

Depends on if you're just being "guided." Depends on if you're provided papers (plain papers cost less, good forgeries cost more), a job, a new identity, the list is endless.

Needless to say, some don't need to pay to be able to get here.

About the indentured servant part: you do know about the girls and boys smuggled here (and abroad) that are used in the sex industry, right? Promised a bright future in America only to be prostituted. Given a bastardized version of the American dream. Sickening.

Some pay off their debts by becoming drug mules, others different ways but they are endentured to others in their home country because the criminals in their home country know where their families live, shop, and work and non-payment is not tolerated.

You don't learn that being a reactionary cop. You learn it being a good investigator.

$10,000 probably pays for some added benefits to the crossing.

$20,000 is alot... but probably not unheard of.

 

[XL-entLady]

I highly recommend the following opinion piece. It says what I've been trying, but failing, to put across.

How we became white people
by Christina Lander

"...I'm a white male. I belong to a group that pretty much always been able to own land and to vote. I'm more or less from the kind that grabbed power somewhere after the fall of Rome and never let go. In other words, I'm the kind of white guy that has never experienced any real oppression.

Although I guess my ancestors technically left England because of some religious persecution and in spite of a rough boat ride and a rough first Thanksgiving, it's safe to say it worked out pretty well. ... But in addition to being white and having ancestors on the Mayflower, I'm also Canadian. Yes, I know that might actually make me more white than before, but it also technically makes me an immigrant to this country. ......

The reality is that America has a long history of welcoming immigrants who will never be able to check that white box on the census, and unfortunately that means America also has a long history of discrimination against those people regardless of their status in the country. Just one example would be the treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War II contrasted against the treatment of German-Americans. But all of that was in the past right? Well, ask yourself this: Who is more likely to get pulled over and forced to show his papers in Arizona today? A first generation Canadian immigrant, or a 10th generation Mexican-American?

What I hope this census will force the country to deal with is the fact that white immigrants like me will never again make up the majority of people that come to this country. America is not getting whiter, it will never get whiter. Well, unless we start handing those blankets out again."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/29/lander.who.am.i/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[Minnow]

I highly recommend the following opinion piece. It says what I've been trying, but failing, to put across.

How we became white people
by Christina Lander

"...I'm a white male. I belong to a group that pretty much always been able to own land and to vote. I'm more or less from the kind that grabbed power somewhere after the fall of Rome and never let go. In other words, I'm the kind of white guy that has never experienced any real oppression.

Although I guess my ancestors technically left England because of some religious persecution and in spite of a rough boat ride and a rough first Thanksgiving, it's safe to say it worked out pretty well. ... But in addition to being white and having ancestors on the Mayflower, I'm also Canadian. Yes, I know that might actually make me more white than before, but it also technically makes me an immigrant to this country. ......

The reality is that America has a long history of welcoming immigrants who will never be able to check that white box on the census, and unfortunately that means America also has a long history of discrimination against those people regardless of their status in the country. Just one example would be the treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War II contrasted against the treatment of German-Americans. But all of that was in the past right? Well, ask yourself this: Who is more likely to get pulled over and forced to show his papers in Arizona today? A first generation Canadian immigrant, or a 10th generation Mexican-American?

What I hope this census will force the country to deal with is the fact that white immigrants like me will never again make up the majority of people that come to this country. America is not getting whiter, it will never get whiter. Well, unless we start handing those blankets out again."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/29/lander.who.am.i/index.html?hpt=T2

This is an America issue, not a color or race issue.

Really, I have a high opinion and the utmost respect for you. Would you mind peddling white guilt on the Progressives thread, instead.

 

[XL-entLady]

There's a price and cost structure and, I hate to say this, it depends. ...

About the indentured servant part: you do know about the girls and boys smuggled here (and abroad) that are used in the sex industry, right? Promised a bright future in America only to be prostituted. Given a bastardized version of the American dream. Sickening.

Some pay off their debts by becoming drug mules, others different ways but they are endentured to others in their home country because the criminals in their home country know where their families live, shop, and work and non-payment is not tolerated.

You don't learn that being a reactionary cop. You learn it being a good investigator.

$10,000 probably pays for some added benefits to the crossing.

$20,000 is alot... but probably not unheard of.

I didn't know what today's prices are. Spouse has been out of law enforcement for several years. I asked him to change careers after I heard him swapping stories with co-workers about their investigation work on the Enrique Camarena case. I told him I didn't look good in black.

But I've heard anecdotal evidence similar to the rest of your post from him and others. Sad.

 

[Show-me]

Race card, race card, race card. When you do not have a valid rebuttal to enforcing the criminal act of being in this Country illegally you have to throw out the race card, the white supremacy card, the uneducated gun caring redneck hick card, the hate card, the that so unfair card.

How about they are here illegally and many are absorbing our taxpayer funded resources that are reserved for actual legal law abiding citizens.

How many before you say enough? Start by abolishing the income tax code and going to a FairTax system and I will probably be much more lenient. I would like all the States go to that system too. Make everyone pay for infrastructure, not just the people that actually REPORT their incomes.

 

[Steadygain]

It says what I've been trying, but failing, to put across.

You've been doing great Lady - it all depends on the mindset of the reader. Are they seriously open minded enough to hear your message and accept what your saying ... or do they have some preconceived idea to begin with.

America also has a long history of discrimination.

It seems that many have this craving need to discriminate and all it takes is just a few to get many others on board ~ and they immensely feed on each other and it grows bigger and bigger.

Most discrimination is fueled by a lack of understanding. Until you've really taken the time to deeply understand and appreciate the customs of the Native Americans ~ it's easy to write them off. The same would be true of the blacks, the hispanics, the orientials, and all the others. That's one of my biggest blessings -- because I've taken so many Internationals in my home and every single one of them has PROVEN they are just as precious and sacred as anyone else. Until you know that -- there may be some since of wonder or bewilderment ~~ some uncertainity - that really should not exist.

But discrimination can happen in many ways and divisions can become increasingly harsh and severe.

I am genuinely 'Conservative' in the aspects by which a Conservative is most defined. One time I found myself in a world where the meaning was totally different. Here it meant you were to abhor any and all Democrats across the board. And not just abhor them but you were to viciously despise them and the more you did this the greater you became. But if you didn't do this and you didn't all the more do everything possible to attack and tear down the President -- then you were the enemy. I thought it was kind of weird because I had always believed a Rep or Dem were totally free to think for themselves on any issue and personal choices were largely independent regardless -- that it was the individual that determined what they stood for and their Voting class was mainly in place to allow them to vote. But what do I know ?? Apparently NOTHING.

Be glad you're who you are !!

 

[Show-me]

For me it is simple, I fought for and served my people, citizens. I will welcome all comers if they do it legally and pay into the system the same as me. That's it, period. Don't care what color, nationality, religion, etc. Just do it right and by the book. Join the military and serve and show loyalty to this Nation and its citizens.

You try to make it about anything more than that and all you show is how weak your position is. It is the law, follow it. Secure the boarder if you do not like sending disappointed people back from where they came.

 

[XL-entLady]

...Start by abolishing the income tax code and going to a FairTax system ... I would like all the States go to that system too. Make everyone pay for infrastructure, not just the people that actually REPORT their incomes.

Woohoo! A point of agreement! Yay!

A consumption rather than income tax works for me too. And no tax deductions. None. Not for mortgage interest, for charitable donations, or for dependents. That last one will never be passed in Utah.

 

[Frixxxx]

Woohoo! A point of agreement! Yay!

A consumption rather than income tax works for me too. And no tax deductions. None. Not for mortgage interest, for charitable donations, or for dependents. That last one will never be passed in Utah.

Yeah, between the catholics and LDS, that would close down the baby factories:laugh::laugh:

I lived there for 6 years....I know.....Something in the water!

 

[XL-entLady]

Woohoo! A point of agreement! Yay!

A consumption rather than income tax works for me too. And no tax deductions. None. Not for mortgage interest, for charitable donations, or for dependents. That last one will never be passed in Utah.

Yeah, between the catholics and LDS, that would close down the baby factories:laugh::laugh:

I lived there for 6 years....I know.....Something in the water!

You said it! That's why Utah is so low in fed $ returned. Nobody here is old enough to get social security or medicare. :toung: And we can't build schools fast enough. That doesn't help property tax issues either.

 

[James48843]

Now, would you go and tell Shakira I want to have a good one-on-one "discussion" to enlighten her.

Am I free to go? :nuts:

 

[Steadygain]

For me it is simple, I fought for and served my people, citizens. I will welcome all comers if they do it legally and pay into the system the same as me. That's it, period. Don't care what color, nationality, religion, etc. Just do it right and by the book. Join the military and serve and show loyalty to this Nation and its citizens.

You try to make it about anything more than that and all you show is how weak your position is. It is the law, follow it. Secure the boarder if you do not like sending disappointed people back from where they came.

AMEN !! Man this is very well put.

Hey as a Guru you have class and style ~ but that is magnified by a hundred fold as a Moderator. I'm a little concerned about that because you really were a fantastic one.

I hope it's nothing to do with you not feeling you've got the liberty to respond however you feel like responding -- cause that's just not true Show-me. This all the more shows who and what you are.

If you're afraid Tom will send you in the corner for leaving ~ don't be ~ I'll deal with him.

If you simply need a break - or it's your health or anything then I'll leave it alone. In fact I won't say anything else anyway -- but I think you were a great one -- you're still great either way.

Steady

 

[Show-me]

Steady,

Thanks for the very cool compliment and I'm cool with being just a citizen. Very liberating and I did not feel I contributed that much as a Mod anyways.

Have a great weekend, as for me, I am going to watch my son play some jazz at the local watering hole. It feels a little strange as he is only 17, but he is very good.