Why the lag?

Aaron27

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I am in the military and I generally believe the TSP is a good deal and I'm glad to have access to this benefit. However, I am irritated with the delay between when money for TSP is deducted from my paycheck and when it is actually put into my account (and the "shares" are actually purchased).

For example, if I elect to have 10% of my pay put into TSP, then 10% of my midmonth pay is deducted and 10% of the money on the 1st is deducted. The midmonth pay deduction just sits with DFAS, though and is not sent to the TSP. So, for example, if someone has a base pay of $2,500, you would see $125 deducted from pay on the 15th and $125 deducted from pay on the 1st. The purchase isn't made until after the 1st, so you lose out on any interest earnings you could have benefited from that first $125 for two weeks. That obviously isn't a lot of lost potential interest, but what if you put aside more and lose out on two weeks interest every month for 20 years? That's significant.

Now, this isn't the TSP's fault. It's DFAS. And DFAS was supposed to solve it with DIMHRS, a program they spent years and billions of dollars developing and just threw in the trashcan. But that's the government for you.

What bothers me about TSP is that they get sent money by DFAS on the same day my bank gets it (I assume). And I believe that is the same day that EOM LESes are issued, which is between the 23rd and 25th of the month. So why does the TSP take that money and then wait until 2nd or 3rd to put it in the funds? Banks hold checks when they don't know if it's going to bounce, but the TSP knows that the US Treasury is good for this. Why does it take 9 or 10 days to buy the shares? Where does the money sit in the meantime? I understand this is a large program they're administering but they should be able to put the funds in on the 1st or the last business day before the 1st just like banks are required to do.

This bothers me months like this one where the closing price of the SP500 was much lower on the 1st than it will be when the TSP finally gets around to purchasing the shares. And when you're buying into an investment that you don't plan to draw on for another 40 years, missing out on a half a share a month can add up to a significant amount.

I understand that since prices fluctuate up and down, some months this hurts you and some months it helps, but in general I believe it hurts (since markets generally tend to appreciate over time). Certainly for G fund investors, it results in a marginal loss on potential earnings every month.
 
And here are some hints to the answer of that-

You don't get paid on the 15th!

Technically, those in the military get paid ONCE PER MONTH, at the END of the month. That check you are getting on the 15th isn't a paycheck- technically it's an ADVANCE of your pay - a half-month of an advance.

I was active duty in the early 1980's when we only got paid once per month. There was no such thing as a mid-month payment until the mid-1980's, when they initiated it as an advance of part of your pay.

Now, COULD they change the way they do it now and allow you to buy TSP shares out of your mid-month pay advance? Sure, they could. But they haven't done it yet.

P.S.- In those days, you got paid at the end of the month, and each unit had a pay officer who cashed you out, and paid you the whole month's pay in cash. I enjoyed those days.
 
You're splitting hairs on the mid-month pay deal. You may think I don't get paid, but I promise you, the numbers in checking account change in the positive direction.

And I would venture to guess that pay is earned on a pro-rated basis. You don't earn $0 per day from the 2nd through the 31st and $2500 on the 1st. So this "advance" pay on the 15th is for the previous 14 days and you wouldn't owe it back if your enlistment contract was terminated on the 16th for whatever reason. "Advance" implies you haven't earned it, but we're pretty sure you will, so you can have some early. That's not the case here.

And it's certainly the case that if I elected to contribute 0% to the TSP, that I'd get more money on the 15th that I would be free to invest or spend however I please. By electing to contribute to the TSP, I tie that money up and it sits who knows where from the 15th-2nd or 3rd or 4th of the next month.
 
...
And I would venture to guess that pay is earned on a pro-rated basis. You don't earn $0 per day from the 2nd through the 31st and $2500 on the 1st. So this "advance" pay on the 15th is for the previous 14 days and you wouldn't owe it back if your enlistment contract was terminated on the 16th for whatever reason. "Advance" implies you haven't earned it, but we're pretty sure you will, so you can have some early. That's not the case here...


No- "Advance" means that you are paid BEFORE the end of the period in which your pay and allowances are calculated. Pay is not calculated each day. Pay is set for the entire month. The military isn't 'hourly" pay, it's "monthly" pay. The pay is not technically due to be paid to you until the month is over. If you get a partial payment prior to the end of the month, that actually is technically an advance due to you.

You may think I don't get paid, but I promise you, the numbers in checking account change in the positive direction.
True, the numbers in your checking account do move in a positive direction. However, you haven't been paid. You have been given an advance prior to the actual pay-date. The actual paydate is the end of the month.

"Adavnce" doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you've earned it yet. It has to do with whether or not it is given to you prior to the actual day it is authorized to be deducted from the U.S. Treasury and instead handed over to you.

Hey, you can believe whatever the heck you want to believe. I'm just telling you the facts. If you can't grasp that concept, I can't help you.

There have been times in the past, when Congress didn't get the budget done, that the Federal Government actually MOVED a payday one day, from the 31st of the month, to the 1st of the month, in order to "smoke and mirrors" the budget. That's a fact, Jack.
 
You're splitting hairs on the mid-month pay deal. You may think I don't get paid, but I promise you, the numbers in checking account change in the positive direction.

And I would venture to guess that pay is earned on a pro-rated basis. You don't earn $0 per day from the 2nd through the 31st and $2500 on the 1st. So this "advance" pay on the 15th is for the previous 14 days and you wouldn't owe it back if your enlistment contract was terminated on the 16th for whatever reason. "Advance" implies you haven't earned it, but we're pretty sure you will, so you can have some early. That's not the case here.

And it's certainly the case that if I elected to contribute 0% to the TSP, that I'd get more money on the 15th that I would be free to invest or spend however I please. By electing to contribute to the TSP, I tie that money up and it sits who knows where from the 15th-2nd or 3rd or 4th of the next month.

I think James might be correct. I remember when the Army converted to direct deposit and we got paid twice per month. It was nice being paid in cash, but it was even nicer not to have to wait in line for the payroll officer to pay you.

Why not ask your Unit's finance people? They might be able to corroberate what James has said.
 
What is really interesting is that TSP isn't addressed AT ALL in the Army's regulation on pay administration, AR 37-104-4.

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r37_104_4.pdf

I just looked up the reg to try and see if TSP was consdiered a mandatory or non-madatory allotment. The difference is that if you run out of disposable pay, they are supposed to pay mandatory allotments, but they can hold up paying out non-madatory allotments. It turns out that TSP isn't addressed either way. Internesting.

I'm looking now to see if the DoD regulation on pay specifically addresses it. That might have the answer. I
'm searching.
 
Well, that's interesting.

I just ran down two different DFAS and DoD regulations/order relating to military pay, and there is NOTHING in either one of them that specifically outlines mitiary pay and the TSP.

Here is what my gut is telling me from everything I've read so far in thee different sets of regulations (DoD and U.S. Army).

What I am finding so far is that the TSP was extended to the military back when there is was only a single TSP pay input per month (Before 'daily valuation" was created).

So the military set everything up ONLY to make one deposit per month.

When the daily valuation went into affect in the new system, the military did not make any change to THEIR system to recognize that.

So the Military is just continuing what they did before- the accumulate the cash from mid-month payments, and end of the month payments...and then forward that over to the TSP each month, but just once per month.

At least that is what it appears from my research so far.

Can any current military members tell me if I am correct?
 
What bothers me about TSP is that they get sent money by DFAS on the same day my bank gets it (I assume). And I believe that is the same day that EOM LESes are issued, which is between the 23rd and 25th of the month. So why does the TSP take that money and then wait until 2nd or 3rd to put it in the funds? Banks hold checks when they don't know if it's going to bounce, but the TSP knows that the US Treasury is good for this. Why does it take 9 or 10 days to buy the shares? Where does the money sit in the meantime? I understand this is a large program they're administering but they should be able to put the funds in on the 1st or the last business day before the 1st just like banks are required to do.
LES's are issued based on the payroll information. At this time....NO MONEY has been transferred, allocated or dispersed. The money is released on the first. Banks "trust" the government, so this is usually dispersed the last business day before the first. Now, TSP does NOT always get the funds on the first like the banks. So, it may take a day or two, depending on the time TSP gets the funds into their systems. It could take an extra day or two!
This bothers me months like this one where the closing price of the SP500 was much lower on the 1st than it will be when the TSP finally gets around to purchasing the shares. And when you're buying into an investment that you don't plan to draw on for another 40 years, missing out on a half a share a month can add up to a significant amount.

I understand that since prices fluctuate up and down, some months this hurts you and some months it helps, but in general I believe it hurts (since markets generally tend to appreciate over time). Certainly for G fund investors, it results in a marginal loss on potential earnings every month.
What your heartburn is about is the actual time to get the funds into TSP. That is the cost of doing business. TSP doesn't "get" the money like the banks. That is the delay. Think of it like you wrote a chack and the money gets there the day "after" you get paid. The fluctuations you describe would have to be studied.
 
Thanks, I appreciate the comments. And admittedly I'm not an expert so I am eager to be educated.

I guess part of my frustration comes from not understanding the nature of electronic transfers of money. I know that DFAS sends an electronic transfer to my bank of $x,xxx.xx and associated with that transfer must be a day that it's released. So it's similar to giving someone a post-dated check, ie, here's the instrument and you're free to use it at the later date specified.

In my experience, most commercial banks do not release the funds prior to the pay date. Many credit unions, especially those that cater to military personnel, will release them a few days early. This makes sense.

But one would think that TSP, even though it's a wholly separate entity from DFAS, would be able to have an even more "trusting" relationship, so to speak, with DFAS as they are both federal government organizations. As it is, there's a greater lag than with commercial banks or credit unions.

And while your funds are cleared with your bank overnight prior to the morning of payday, all I really expect is that shares be purchased at the close of market trading that same day, as the payday always falls on days when the markets are open (with maybe a few exceptions I can't think of..)

Anyway, I'm probably thinking about this way too much. I'm probably also making the perfect the enemy of the good. If this delay is the price we pay for the insanely low overhead costs of the TSP, it's probably still a positive tradeoff for participants...

Thanks for entertaining my ramblings. :cheesy:
 
And here are some hints to the answer of that-

You don't get paid on the 15th!

Technically, those in the military get paid ONCE PER MONTH, at the END of the month. That check you are getting on the 15th isn't a paycheck- technically it's an ADVANCE of your pay - a half-month of an advance.

I was active duty in the early 1980's when we only got paid once per month. There was no such thing as a mid-month payment until the mid-1980's, when they initiated it as an advance of part of your pay.

Now, COULD they change the way they do it now and allow you to buy TSP shares out of your mid-month pay advance? Sure, they could. But they haven't done it yet.

P.S.- In those days, you got paid at the end of the month, and each unit had a pay officer who cashed you out, and paid you the whole month's pay in cash. I enjoyed those days.

Minor point, perhaps off subject but I enlisted in the Air Force in '72 and from the point I finished basic I got paid twice per month. I was also "strongly urged" to do a direct deposit.
 
NASA has a similar delay/advance dilemma. Technically, the pay date is 10 days after the close of a pay period, which means that Tuesday is the true (legal) payday for a pay period that ended 10 days prior (ex. Sun Aug 1st thru Aug 14 is a pay period with the pay date for this period of work Aug 24). But, we are 'advanced' our pay by 5 days such that Thursday evening the money is wired to the banks for a Friday morning deposit posting and a Thursday cob share buy from contributions (contribution purchase happens on Aug 19 and money is officially deposited in your credit union account the morning of the 20th). This 'advance' allows for Friday paydays every two weeks instead of Tuesday pay days. The difference is we get paid for work that has already been performed.
 
JTH, comment about "all this great information" noted.

When I see a blanket comment made about military pay by someone who's experience included singing about caissons, I do have to speak up.

Many agencies have a setup similar to NASA. I get paid 12 days after the end of the pay period. My credit union honors the deposit one day earlier.

Checking in to when the TSP contributions are made vs. when you are paid them can be difficult because the amount is usually the same pay period to pay period. I had a different amount contributed a few pay periods back which allowed me to confirm again what I thought. The differing amount BTW was a $13 or so increase in combined basic and matching agency contributions.

Contribution date to TSP was 7/26. Pay date was 7/29 and end of pay period was 7/17. So, yeah I guess frtib fronted me the money for three days.
 
Two for one- Caissons and the Wild Blue Yonder- both from a record made in 1950-(When Mitch Miller and the Sand Pipers played it on a '78!- when we still had the Army Air Corps as a recent memory....)



Record:
milsongs.jpg

 
Thanks for that trip down memory lane. We used to sing something like "our existance is dismissed, when the balloon goes up we'll be mist, (sometimes "we'll not be missed"), nothing can stop the US Air Force"

I would not mind continuing to discuss the pay differences between the services over the years and if it was advanced or earned.

Maybe under a new thread - day job/military/veterans arguing

regards
 
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