TSP in the Early Days

[ripper]

Another thread on here reminded me of the early days of the TSP.

I was one of the early FERS employees when I was hired in 12/84. I remember being told before I was hired that they were in the process of implementing a new retirement system and that they didn't know at that time if I would be under CSRS or FERS. I had to sign a statement stating that I was aware of that fact.

I don't think we were able to contribute to the TSP right away. I think that happened a number of months after I started. I remember being excited when I learned that they would match my contributions. I shared that with a co-worker, who had 20+ years of service, and he kind of let the air out of my balloon. He told me there was no way he would ever put money into something like that because he was sure they would eventually find a way to screw you out of it.

I don't think we had a choice of funds at the very beginning. I believe it all went into the G Fund. I remember when there were three funds: G, F and C. The S Fund came next followed by the I and - much later - the L Funds.

People rarely made an IFT. When you did make one, you had to complete a form. Not sure if you mailed that form or submitted it to HR in the early years.

You could only learn what your balance was when your statement arrived in the mail. I may be wrong, but I think in the first years they were only sent annually.

I think it was a number of years later that you could finally get your balance from an automated system on the telephone.

I'm sure my recollections aren't completely accurate. Does anyone else remember the early days of TSP?

 

[alevin]

Ah yes, those were the days. Young 20-something trying to get through gradschool, working as a fed trainee a few months a year while finishing school. 1986-1988. G fund only, 1% only, GS-4. didn't have enough income to put more than 1% away the months that I was working. full time starting 1989-GS-5, paying off a private loan needed to help me move to my new permanent duty station and get set up living there. 5% started going into tsp at that point. Mostly into G, some into C and F, no clue what I was doing, no knowledge of how to allocate assets. 1990-got the 9, started putting in 10%, private loan paid off. Still only G,C,F available at that point I think, maybe S came in around then, not sure. don't think I put anything into S at first, definitely avoided I for a long time. International stocks were "risky", the conventional wisdom back then said don't put more than 5-10% into international stocks if doing asset allocation.

And I'm pretty sure you could only make 1 or 2 transfers a month, by mailing in the form. And then only 1 or 2 transfers by phone after that. but I didn't do much except do some sort of "rebalance" annually after getting my annual statement. the phone and snail mail protocols and limited amounts of transfers allowed were truly disincentives for learning much about how to manage my tsp any better than blindly doing some semblance of asset allocation and doing a rebalance of some kind 1-2 times a year. Until after the 2000-2002 recesssion when I discovered I'd lost 25% of the balance I'd accumulated over 15 years, which I didn't get back til around 06. any wonder I'm so conservative about making moves? I'd just started following one of the paid service guys on the site here in 06 (before he went to paid-status), made some quick in-out moves successfully, and feeling like I could make some hay-finally. then they shut us down again. damit.

I tried to learn about the market over the years by reading but didn't learn much at all except a little about regular IRAs and mutual funds, til the internet came along and I only really started understanding how stocks and the market work when I discovered internet financial sites around 2003-2005. here we be. I'm still learning. every day. younger newer feds today have so many more readily accessible information resources to work with as far as getting in front of the curve than us early birds did. except Birch of course. he absorbed it from the air around him back then somehow, I swear he did.

 

[tsptalk]

You were able to make 1 transfer a month. You had to make the transfer by the 15th of the month to be effective the 1st of the following month.

 

[nasa1974]

Back when TSP was first made available I though why do Ineed this I have a government pension. I don't even remember if we had any kindof training. But I thought extra money for retirement why not. I was CSRS, sono matching funds, and I started with 3% from my pay. Just starting a familyand didn't have much extra money. In the early years it was difficult to moveyour money around so it pretty much stayed in the G fund. I did move into the Cfund once in awhile. Had no idea what I was doing. Snail mail was reallypainful and once we could do it by phone it made it a little easier. Once wecould use the internet it was WOW!! I was in Phoenix for some training andthese two guys from Alaska keeping playing with a laptop early in the morning.So I asked what they were doing and they said that they were watching the stockmarket and making changes to their TSP. That’s when I realized I could actuallymake some money. One of them got me hooked on TSPTalk. Then I really startedlearning something. It was more fun back in the days you could move your moneyaround on a daily basis.

 

[Dutchy]

nasa1974....Back when TSP was first made available I though why do Ineed this I have a government pension. I don't even remember if we had any kindof training. But I thought extra money for retirement why not. I was CSRS, sono matching funds, and I started with 3% from my pay. Just starting a familyand didn't have much extra money. In the early years it was difficult to moveyour money around so it pretty much stayed in the G fund. I did move into the Cfund once in awhile. Had no idea what I was doing. Snail mail was reallypainful and once we could do it by phone it made it a little easier. Once wecould use the internet it was WOW!! I was in Phoenix for some training andthese two guys from Alaska keeping playing with a laptop early in the morning.So I asked what they were doing and they said that they were watching the stockmarket and making changes to their TSP. That’s when I realized I could actuallymake some money. One of them got me hooked on TSPTalk. Then I really startedlearning something. It was more fun back in the days you could move your moneyaround on a daily basis.

Yes, I too remember the days of daily trades, after being clued in by a friend at work...
Fun, but could be dangerous too!!
I remember trying to catch the I Fund on the following day after a big up day in our Market.
Well, as we know, TSP put the kabash on that pretty quickly, after they started seeing the
the daily moves folks were making between Funds..
Sure am glad that we have TSPTALK as a resource !

 

[Stoplight]

Man ! This thread is a "blast from the past" !!! Thanks, Ripper and the other contributors, for your comments !

Ripper, I beat ya...I started in 6/84...JUST MISSED the "end" of the CSRS by a month or two...my specific memories are vague, too. I remember Congress still hadn't decided what "FERS" would look like, and it took them a while to figure it all out, and implement the system. I believe Tom is right...1 IFT by the 15th, effective next month, and all done by snail mail ! That sounds familiar...

I, too, remember being excited about the program...the match, plus the fact that you could get the tax break on your deductions. The Wife and I were "DINK's" (Dual Income, No Kids, for you youngsters) and had traditional IRAs, but we lost the ability to deduct contributions to the IRAs because we made too much money...stopped putting money there, and tried to max out my TSP...

Of course, like most of us, I was a knucklehead and put it all in the G fund...my first record of venturing into the C fund is 1995 ; bonds in 2002 (when my Wife was first offered a 403(b) by the School Board), and I fund in 2005.

In 2007, the Wife's 403(b) provider shifted to a new company, and I joined TSPTalk...FINALLY started getting smart !!!

Took a beat-down in 2008, like everyone else...thought at the time : "Shoulda stayed in the G fund..."

2009...new job, my first investment in the S fund, and the Wife's retirement...in 2012, I retired, and we rolled the "old" IRA's, her 2 - 403(b) accounts, and most of my TSP into self-directed traditional IRA's with USAA, where I'm happily managing the balance, and making money with the input from all the good Folks here !



Stoplight...

 

[Cactus]

Thanks everyone for describing the early days of TSP. You guys go back before me. I didn't realize TSP went back that far. I figured it started with me in the late 80s. I was wrong.

I remember going down to HR to fill out that green form for an IFT the following month. And our statements came out twice a year (May & Nov) showing monthly returns. We had 3 Funds (G, F, & C) by the time I came in. I was conservative and stuck everything in the G Fund. I didn't venture out into the C Fund until after the Y2K scare (remember that) and promptly saw it disappear in the dot-com bust. So here I am still trying to recover from that.

 

[Frixxxx]

Thanks everyone for describing the early days of TSP. You guys go back before me. I didn't realize TSP went back that far. I figured it started with me in the late 80s. I was wrong.

I remember going down to HR to fill out that green form for an IFT the following month. And our statements came out twice a year (May & Nov) showing monthly returns. We had 3 Funds (G, F, & C) by the time I came in. I was conservative and stuck everything in the G Fund. I didn't venture out into the C Fund until after the Y2K scare (remember that) and promptly saw it disappear in the dot-com bust. So here I am still trying to recover from that.

I'd take the returns from the 80's today:

 

[nasa1974]

Thanks everyone for describing the early days of TSP. You guys go back before me. I didn't realize TSP went back that far. I figured it started with me in the late 80s. I was wrong.

I remember going down to HR to fill out that green form for an IFT the following month. And our statements came out twice a year (May & Nov) showing monthly returns. We had 3 Funds (G, F, & C) by the time I came in. I was conservative and stuck everything in the G Fund. I didn't venture out into the C Fund until after the Y2K scare (remember that) and promptly saw it disappear in the dot-com bust. So here I am still trying to recover from that.

The early days of TSP we very interesting. Not a lot of information out there for you to work with and it was very inconvenient to make IFT's. Let alone to know how your account was doing. I honestly don't remember the forms but I did make a phone call or two. I know I stayed in "G" fund for a long time. If I remember correctly wasn't FERS offered the same time as TSP? TSP was offered to both CSRS and FERS but the matching funds was the sell point to switch from CSRS to FERS. I know a few guys that bought into that and switched. Until a friend of mine told me about this site I had no clue what I was doing.

Maybe we should start a thread that you can tell how you found this place.

 

[nasa1974]

In the early days the "G" fund was a safe bet. 6-10% yearly return with no worries.

 

[Stoplight]

The early days of TSP we very interesting. Not a lot of information out there for you to work with and it was very inconvenient to make IFT's. Let alone to know how your account was doing. I honestly don't remember the forms but I did make a phone call or two. I know I stayed in "G" fund for a long time. If I remember correctly wasn't FERS offered the same time as TSP? TSP was offered to both CSRS and FERS but the matching funds was the sell point to switch from CSRS to FERS. I know a few guys that bought into that and switched. Until a friend of mine told me about this site I had no clue what I was doing.

Maybe we should start a thread that you can tell how you found this place.

Nasa,

I think you have it a little bit backwards...FERS was the overall "new" retirement plan ; TSP was one part of the FERS Program. TSP was offered to both FERS and CSRS employees, although as I recall, without the match for you CSRS Guys.

I remember reading something about FERS quite a while ago...the program was compared to a 3-legged stool for us...the pension/"annuity" ; the TSP ; and Social Security, which you Guys didn't pay in to, right ?

I also remember that CSRS Guys were given the opportunity to completely switch from the CSRS plan to the FERS plan. As you note, there was a lot of anguish on the part of the CSRSers over "Should I, or shouldn't I ???" Not much info, but I never knew anyone who made that switch...most came to the conclusion that it was a lousy deal for them !


Stoplight...

 

[nasa1974]

Nasa,

I think you have it a little bit backwards...FERS was the overall "new" retirement plan ; TSP was one part of the FERS Program. TSP was offered to both FERS and CSRS employees, although as I recall, without the match for you CSRS Guys.

I remember reading something about FERS quite a while ago...the program was compared to a 3-legged stool for us...the pension/"annuity" ; the TSP ; and Social Security, which you Guys didn't pay in to, right ?

I also remember that CSRS Guys were given the opportunity to completely switch from the CSRS plan to the FERS plan. As you note, there was a lot of anguish on the part of the CSRSers over "Should I, or shouldn't I ???" Not much info, but I never knew anyone who made that switch...most came to the conclusion that it was a lousy deal for them !


Stoplight...

Stoplight,

Close enough for government work.

You're right FERS was the new deal with TSP being one of the 3 legs. Us CSRS'ers didn't get matching funds. Some of the guys that switched realized too late that it was a bad deal but tried to make the best of it.

 

[Frixxxx]

Stoplight,

Close enough for government work.

You're right FERS was the new deal with TSP being one of the 3 legs. Us CSRS'ers didn't get matching funds. Some of the guys that switched realized too late that it was a bad deal but tried to make the best of it.

And when the government wants to offer you change, be afraid, be very afraid!

 

[Scout333]

And if its Hope and Change! Be really really afraid!

 

[uscfanhawaii]

You're right, FERS was the new deal with TSP being one of the 3 legs. Us CSRS'ers didn't get matching funds. Some of the guys that switched realized too late that it was a bad deal but tried to make the best of it.

Oh boy...this is a fun thread! Everyone having their own story. Well, as one who DID switch to FERS, I guess you might be interested in my take on this.
I started in 1982, as a CSRS employee. When FERS was introduced in 1984, the option to switch was given to existing CSRS'ers. As a bonus, if you had less than 5 years in, you got to convert your existing CSRS contributions to FERS, AND got interest on your contributions based on the 'going rates' at the time (which as NASA pointed out were pretty good then...8-10%!). 2 things I really liked about FERS. 1) It was portable. You could take your TSP with you if you left gov't service. CSRS'ers could only take out their contributions or defer taking anything until they were elegible to retire. 2) TSP was your money. You could invest as you saw fit, and it could not be taken away. Pensions are being taken away every day. Thank goodness that CSRS pensions have continued...some state and local ones have gone by the wayside.

The down side was, of course, that the CSRS pension was VERY generous....assuming you stayed in the gov't your whole career to get it. I had worked in private industry before my gov't job and had no idea if I would stay for 30 yrs or not. Portability seemed best. Plus, when I did the calcs based on what a CSRS pension would cost if you wanted to buy one (via an annuity), I came out with about $650,000. I made it my goal to get my TSP up to $1MM. Side benefits include that you could decide if you wanted an annuity or not at retirement, or could do a partial annuity. The thought of leaving some to heirs was also appealing. So the flexibility of the FERS was a real factor. I felt that if I could beat the $650K, I should be able to match the CSRS money, and still have all the other benefits.

So how to get the $650K? I figured equities was the only way. But the FERS switch was agonizingly SLOW. From 1984, it took 3 years for OPM to switch me. 1987. (More on that later.) But remember the 'special deal' for us less than 5 yr employees? That's right, they kept track all those years and when I finally switched, got all that 8-10% interest put on top of my original contributions. The interest was actually way more than the contributions part! From there, I put everything into equities as soon as they would let us. At first, only a portion of our contributions could go into C. ALL gov't matching had to go to G. Slowly they increased the % that could go into equities and then started also allowing matching funds to go into equities, as they were also increasing the kinds of equities they could go into. Every time they increased the allowable % for equities, I put in the max. Eventually, ~1992 or 93?, we had 100% control. I put all allocations and current balance into equities, 33C/34S/33I, and let it ride. And the 90's were very kind to equities! Even with the dotcom bubble burst at the end of the 90's, when my balance went from $300K to $150K, I still stayed 33/34/33 and rode the wave back up with dollar cost averaging. I again got whacked in 2008, and found TSPTalk shortly after. I decided to take more control of my balance distribution, since dollar cost averaging does not work as well when the amt going in is much less than the existing balance. So how have I done, now that I DID stay in gov't for 32 yrs after all?!? My TSP balance is $820K, and I still have a few years to go to make that $1MM. No outside funds were added to my TSP. It's all contributions and matching and growth. So it CAN be done. I am seeing all my colleagues retiring, still under CSRS, and I agree that they are definitely getting a very generous pension. I am happy for them. But I can't complain about my switch. If I drop dead tomorrow before even retiring and getting any of my pension, at least I know my heirs will still get the $820K, and it can be any heirs, not just my wife getting half of my pension. The additional flexibility is there.

Now, if you are still with me, you remember that I promised to give add'l info on why it took 3 yrs for OPM to get me switched. You can imagine that once I decided to switch, I wanted to get on with it! I kept badgering HRO about why it was taking so long. The answer always was that they had to wait for OPM. I was especially antsy because I did not know at the time that they would continue to accrue interest on my interest until the switch was made. Finally I said, even if it WAS OPM, there must be a lot of people who were waiting all this time for their switch to be effective. After all, how many gov't workers are there? 4 million or so? Even a small % would be a lot of people. It was then that they told me that only approximately 400, yeah 4 hundred, not even a thousand, of the 4MM had switched nationwide! What is that.... 0.0001 or 1 hundredth of 1 percent?!? No wonder that OPM put it on the backburner. And what did my co-workers say at the time? 'If it was a good deal for the employee, why would the gov't make it mandatory that all new employees HAD to have FERS?!?'

Well, if you step back and look at all the plusses and minuses, I think you will see that FERS is a pretty good program, but only if you work it to the max. I have been happy with it....even tho I did stay for 30+ years and could have been getting a CSRS pension if I hadn't switched. I am very happy for my co-workers who are now getting a generous pension for their retirement. But FERS CAN be generous as well. TSPTALK can be a BIG help with all kinds of information. I always feel sad when I find some new employee who is only collecting the gov't 1% contribution. They will be hurt when they retire if they don't change their ways. You MUST get the whole 5% matching as a MINIMUM! DON'T leave everything in G! Set you goal HIGH, and keep after it! You CAN do it!

 

[Cactus]

That's a good point about survivor benefits. Has anyone else compared survivor benefits between CSRS & FERS? I wonder if your wife is a stay-at-home mom that never worked long enough to get her own social security if she wouldn't be better off under FERS? Under CSRS she would get 55% of your pension. Under FERS (todays rules) she would get 50% of your pension, 100% of your TSP, and all of your social security. Even without the TSP it seems she would come out ahead as long as social security survives in its present form. I wouldn't put too much stock in that last part. Any thoughts?

 

[alevin]

Oh boy...this is a fun thread! Everyone having their own story. Well, as one who DID switch to FERS, I guess you might be interested in my take on this.

But the FERS switch was agonizingly SLOW. From 1984, it took 3 years for OPM to switch me. 1987. (More on that later.) But remember the 'special deal' for us less than 5 yr employees? That's right, they kept track all those years and when I finally switched, got all that 8-10% interest put on top of my original contributions. The interest was actually way more than the contributions part!

At first, only a portion of our contributions could go into C. ALL gov't matching had to go to G. Slowly they increased the % that could go into equities and then started also allowing matching funds to go into equities, as they were also increasing the kinds of equities they could go into. Every time they increased the allowable % for equities, I put in the max. Eventually, ~1992 or 93?, we had 100% control.

Gosh, you're remembering things I hadn't remembered. started in mid86. I recall the 8-10% earnings in G, even have a couple ancient tsp reports documenting. didn't remember that we could only put a portion of tsp into C at first. did remember only C, F, G available for a lot of years. started putting 5% matching in as soon as I had enough to live on as fulltime GS-5 starting in 89. before that, I was still in school most of the year with no income, living off of savings. started putting in 10% as soon as got promo to GS9 the instant I went fulltime permanent, done with school (was still finishing degree on the side for first year fulltime as a 5 in 89. There is a document in my permanent files where I signed in Dec 87 (after I had gone back to school for the winter) saying I willing chose to go FERS vs csrs. even though I had been told I really didn't have a choice. had so little knowledge of pros and cons, and given that jobs were hard to come by in the 80s, and my dad faced a RIF in late 70s very late in his csrs career before he had 30 years in, I thought it safer to have portability due to being uncertain my fed career would last 30 years.

life experience up to major decision points will always influence the decisions one makes going forward. do I regret signing to go FERS? I made the best decision I could at the time, with the information I had available to me at the time. We all do. 27.5 years later, I just want to get the 30 in, and make a new decision at that point whether I want/need to stick around longer or not. My uncle continued working much longer than initially planned, private industry, due to his wife needing in-home care, consequence of 10 long years of progressive brain tumor surgeries during his later career.

 

[uscfanhawaii]

That's a good point about survivor benefits. Has anyone else compared survivor benefits between CSRS & FERS? I wonder if your wife is a stay-at-home mom that never worked long enough to get her own social security if she wouldn't be better off under FERS? Under CSRS she would get 55% of your pension. Under FERS (todays rules) she would get 50% of your pension, 100% of your TSP, and all of your social security. Even without the TSP it seems she would come out ahead as long as social security survives in its present form. I wouldn't put too much stock in that last part. Any thoughts?

Good point! Or what if you died at the same time, or around the same time, as your spouse. The kids, if any, would be out of luck! The CSRS generous pension is only good if you stay in gov't service a long time, AND you live a long time after retiring. For me, I still like to have the 'bird in the hand'.

 

[PessOptimist]

Good post uscfanhawaii. In 17 years I have never met anyone who would admit they swtched to FERS back in that day. I do know a couple who left govt service under CSRS but got their retirement contributions refunded so when they came back they were FERS. (I may not have that exactly right but they worked for the govt many years the second time and are under FERS)


Thanks for sharing your story and thanks all others for the inputs.


PO

 

[Scout333]

PO, If they had over five years service before returning they probably would have been CSRS Offset employees with the option to elect FERS. I was in those circumstances and kept the CSRS Offset plan which is a hybrid plan which has good features from both the CSRS and the FERS plans. Does not receive TSP matching contributions however.