The five root causes of a BEAR MARKET are caged for now!

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mlk_man wrote:
What does the graph I posted have to do with inversion? I forget.............
mlk_man wrote:
And yet he says we are in an inverted state.....................:*

DMA wrote:
Yield curve is all ready inverting.

mlk_man wrote:

Not yet buttercup..............
You are wasting everyones time. Do you realize that? You have a hard time admitting when you are wrong, huh? Have a back bone and say you were wrong. We all make mistakes. Others however just attack and waste peoples time. You are wasting our time here and you are wrong. That is not a personal attack I am just stating the facts.:)
 
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mlk_man wrote:

What does the graph I posted have to do with inversion? I forget.............

Can you remember now?



mlk_man wrote:
DMA wrote:
Yield curve is all ready inverting.
Not yet buttercup..............

BONDS
Two questions are roiling the bond markets this week. Will the yield curve invert? Will the Fed stop their rate hikes soon?

[align=justify]The yield curve has not yet inverted, although it certainly flattened more dramatically after the weaker-than-expected nonfarm payroll figure for May. While the bond market rallied on the news, yields started heading back from their lows and by day's end, were down about 10 basis points from Thursday's close. The spread between the 10-year note and the 2-year note has narrowed to 41 basis points. Historically, a yield curve inversion has preceded recessions. It is not yet commonly believed among market players that this drop at the long end of the market is signaling recession. Many believe that the low yields reflect liquidity imbalances in the global market. Since long bond yields are even lower in other countries, the demand for U.S. Treasury securities is strong.

[align=center]
chart-3.gif
[/align]

[/align]
The Fed question is also interesting. Dallas Fed's Fisher, at least initially, claimed the Fed was in the "eighth inning" of a tightening cycle. Before seeing May's employment report, I would have taken Fisher's comments with a big grain of salt. However, if the employment situation indeed signals that economic activity has moderated more significantly lately, this would give the Fed more leeway in pausing their rate hikes this summer. On the other hand, a pundit suggested that Greenspan wants to make sure that inflation will be wiped out and not be an issue when he hands over the reins of the chairmanship in 2006. After 18 years in his position, Greenspan would not want to be remembered as soft on inflation.
How soon can the Fed stop tightening rates? Economists are convinced that the Fed can't stop until the fed funds rate target is somewhere in the neutral zone (of 3.5 to 4.5 percent). At 3 percent today, the Fed will touch the bottom of the neutral zone with two more measured increases of 25 basis points. The next FOMC meeting is a two-day meeting on June 29-30. The Fed next will meet on August 9.

[align=justify]The questions are tough indeed. It is no wonder that market players are anxiously awaiting Greenspan's remarks on Monday night and Thursday. [/align]
 
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The Technician wrote:
I'm surprised its done this well up to now..........

The Technician
I'm Not!:cool:

we are headed up thru EOYI tell YA! however do hope markets listen to you a bit this week soI can go 100% stox and put the hammer down.

tekno

ps: you can re-enter markets at this same point in 2007 if you follow that 1935 dow...LOL
 
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pyriel wrote:
Tech & DMA,
I would like to know if your indicators are telling you that the market will drop overnight? The reason why I am asking is that posters in this board seems knowledgeable enough to jump out of the fire once it really starts burning. I know this because I track people's moves. So let us just say that you both are right, posters might lose 3-5 percentages and I can assure you that they'll jump to G fund as soon as they start seeing the pattern emerging. TSPTALK posters are lucky because even those who don't know squat about indicators usually follow the herd for safety, thus they are able to salvage their hard earned $$$...
Just my .02 cents... As for me, i'm going to g today. Not to hide but to try to get that stupid penny. P
I hope this isn't a bad time to bring this up but I have always wondered about whether or not the market drops suddenly and quickly in 1 day when a crash occurs. Does anyone know about this in relation to the last 30 yrs or less?
WW.gif
 
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DMA wrote:
IMHO, this is going to be a bad week for the stock funds and F fund.
Yields up and stocks down.

Welcome to the trend for the week.

Got to run.

Capital preservation and not speculation.

Something to think about.

:D Buy the dip is not hip. Has not worked in six years and will not work now. :P
Good luck all!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Technician, I've had it with you.

You think I work for a market-maker based on my posts? So, let's put this out for all to see: you think I'm attempting to manipulate the readers and posters of this forum so that I and my (alleged) employer can make money. Go ahead, say it if that's what you believe.

To the rest who actually have functional brains and aren't merely here to take potshots at me and preach endless doom and gloom:I work for the Dept. of Veterans Affairs in a hospital lab. I do not work for anyone else. I do not express opinions for the sake of trying to "drive the market". I am not part of some grand conspiracy to take your money. My account can be watched any time, any day - it's there in the account thread for ALL to see... just as it has been since last year.

I'm here to help people, not hurt them. If the people of this board do not feel that I am doing that or am sincere in my intentions, feel free to PM Tom or another Moderator - they can then tell me to leave. I'll abide by their / your wishes, whatever those may be. You can then spend your time paying close attention to Technician and others like him - and you can hide out in the safety of the G fund for the rest of your lives, regardless of market conditions, because the government is manipulating the data and people with big money are stealing from everyone else.

Enjoy.
 
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DMA wrote:

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"
You are wasting everyones time. Do you realize that? You have a hard time admitting when you are wrong, huh? Have a back bone and say you were wrong. We all make mistakes. Others however just attack and waste peoples time. You are wasting our time here and you are wrong. That is not a personal attack I am just stating the facts.:)
I'll admit when I'm wrong, when I'm wrong MT. What am I wrong about? Read my lips "WE ARE NOT YET IN AN INVERTED YIELD CURVE".................Comprende amigo?

Telling me I have no back bone is not a personal attack? Hmmmmmmmmmm

Oh that's right, iggy, iggy, iggy...............Lord help me...................I lack the strength.......

IF someone with some credibility could inform me where I was wrong, I'll gladly confess to being wrong here.

SHould I use some cool font so everyone will notice me? :oo

BTW, the first sentence inmy response is fact..................just in case you need to know what a "fact" actually is.
 
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mlk_man wrote:
DMA wrote:

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"
You are wasting everyones time. Do you realize that? You have a hard time admitting when you are wrong, huh? Have a back bone and say you were wrong. We all make mistakes. Others however just attack and waste peoples time. You are wasting our time here and you are wrong. That is not a personal attack I am just stating the facts.:)
I'll admit when I'm wrong, when I'm wrong MT. What am I wrong about? Read my lips "WE ARE NOT YET IN AN INVERTED YIELD CURVE".................Comprende amigo?

Telling me I have no back bone is not a personal attack? Hmmmmmmmmmm

Oh that's right, iggy, iggy, iggy...............Lord help me...................I lack the strength.......

IF someone with some credibility could inform me where I was wrong, I'll gladly confess to being wrong here.

SHould I use some cool font so everyone will notice me? :oo

BTW, the first sentence inmy response is fact..................just in case you need to know what a "fact" actually is.
More time wasted.

Good going.

I know you can read. Is comprehension the problem????
2.gif


[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Securities with longer maturities usually have a higher yield. If short term securities offer a higher yield, then the curve is said to be inverted.[/font]
 
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WHo's wasting the time? Look in the mirror MT............

Okay, let me try to explain this like I'm talking to a toddler:

30-year is 4.25%, correct? Are there any short term rates above 4.25%? NO? WELL WELL, good job John-boy. You can take that "dunce cap" off now.

Oh btw, before you say "overnight rates are higher than 3-month rates", please bear in mind, get it "bear", heheh, 3-month bond rates are NOT consider long term.

Thank you very much, have a nice day, kisssssssssssssssss

M_M
 
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Gentleman,

I go and take a break because I have Al Gore on my mind and when I return my Toshiba is smokin. Whew, where does one begin. I know, isn't a butter cup a sweet yellow flower of some kind - do they grow in bunches? If so that is wonderful because Ferdinand will eat as many as he can.

My impression of an inverted yield curve is when the Fed funds rate exceeds the numerical value of the 10 year Treasury bond. 3% verses 3.98%. This gap will narrow if the bonds continue to rally or if the Fed continues to raise rates. With little inflation on the horizon the bonds most likely will continue to rally - telling the Fed it is ok to pause.

I have previously mentioned to DMA that the summer rally starts today - and he has chosen to not hear the snorting approaching his position. If he wants to conserve his capital that is admirable - he and the Technician can open up a G account. Where did phil2000 get off to - he can join this party also.
 
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Pyreil.....I went back and look things over a bit more....you want a date....I'd pay attention to June 15 for now for a head knocker....I got the date projected in my dataas a possible flex point, since the market is high, I would expect some correction by about then...;)but I would get out now,seeing how the market is finicky right now....

I wouldn't be surprised if we will start trading in some larger ranges like I have been expecting....I'm still speculating 40-60 point swings in the S&P....at least until Aug through Oct.....:^

I went to check becauseof what I readabout the Govt has some news for June 15th....is that right DMA???:)

By the way, I went back and studied the market trends after what we just went through....generally, its not good to be prudent getting back into stocks right after a drop.....it could be days maybe over a week before its safe to jump back into the waters again....:zz

:dude:
 
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Well WW, I looked it over and think we in for a decent drop over several days.....coming next week....its worth to get in G and wait it out....then we should watch for several days and then get back in....:D(there's thatcheap grin again)

I believe we will be in for a greater drop in and around Aug Sept Oct....if the economic picture doesn't brighten....seeing that it shouldn't change due to real inflationary pressures, high fuel costs ..blah blah blah....I believe we will get that larger drop.....I'll know more later....as soon as some things firm up....:^

:dude:
 
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Mike,

I'm familiar with you Lab guys always wanting to take the glory. You should be more concerned about you CAP certification -I have one due in September.

Seriously though, you should not have to take the heat for my subtle investment chicanery. I want to be the market-maker so I can make some money. I'm in competition with permabull#1 - to rally the forces of capitalism. I never had the pleasure of meeting MT. So I'm sorry you are taking unnecessary heat - but you must remember the anxiety of missing a good move is greater than giving up a few dollars on the down side. At least you know how much one can loose - on the upside the gain could be exponential. N ow I have to tell Wonder Woman about my humbling experience in the 1987 crash - actually I showed considerable courage.

Now does DMA have any experience with October massacres - I can enlighten him if he is curious- I'm talking about 1977, 1978, 1979 time period.

Dennis
 
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ONe month after this article, the walls cam crumbling down. Again, the 10 and 30-year yields are NOT below short term yields.............at least not yet.

These guys, i mean person, will leave again if the market can manage to move up some more........:^



A scare on US bond markets
By Nick Beams
12 February 2000
[size=-1]Use this version to print[/size]

The instability of US financial markets, and the potential for a major financial crisis, has again been illustrated by a series of recent events in the bond markets.

The week before last, as rumours spread through the market that one or more major financial institutions were on the brink of collapse, the New York Federal Reserve was forced to issue a statement denying that it was organising financial support. Major financial houses, including Lehman Brothers were also forced to issue similar denials.

While the market has since calmed and the near-crisis appears to have passed, at least for now, the circumstances that led up to it make clear it will not be the last.

The specific circumstances involved the development of peculiar conditions in the bond market. In normal times, the yield on long-term bonds (the effective interest rate) of 10 and 30 years is higher than those of a shorter duration.

However, in recent weeks the market has been experiencing a so-called inverse yield curve in which yields on long-term bonds move lower than their short-term counter-parts. The general expectation in the market was that with an increase in interest rates by the US Federal Reserve, the yield rates would revert to more normal patterns. That is, the price of long-term bonds in the market would fall, and their yields would accordingly rise.

Basing themselves on this expectation, major financial institutions had been selling short. That is, they had been selling bonds they did not have in anticipation that the price would fall, whereupon they would be able to enter the market, buy the bonds they had previously sold at a lower price and realise a profit.

But events did not turn out as expected. Instead of falling, long-term bonds continued to rise, creating the conditions where the institutions which had short sold would be faced with massive losses as they sought to meet their commitments.

The peculiar situation appears to have been compounded by the announcement by the US Treasury that it would begin buying back bonds as well as reducing future auctions as part of a debt-reduction program.

The amounts involved in the short-selling operation were not small. It has been estimated that the total “short” position of the hedge funds, brokerage and investment houses in 30-year bonds was a massive $7 billion—the largest amount since the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission started keeping records.

Commenting on the crisis in an editorial last Monday, the Financial Times pointed out that while buying back debt when budgets are in surplus sounds like good financial housekeeping, the US debt managers had “nearly succeeded ... in causing a financial panic with their plans.”

“While many possible endings to the long US economic cycle have been mooted, the idea that the US Treasury might prompt a financial meltdown had not occurred, even to the most bearish pundits. Perhaps they should moot some more.”

Coincidentally, the near-crisis took place days before a PBS television program detailing the collapse of the US hedge fund, Long Term Capital Management, in September 1998. On that occasion, the US Federal Reserve Board intervened with a $36 billion bailout operation to prevent a “systemic” crisis in the US and global financial system.

As the program made clear, the risk evaluation formulae on which LTCM carried out its activities were based on long research and sophisticated mathematics. The problem was, however, that they were all grounded on the expectation that in the event of fluctuations in the market, conditions would return to the historical norm.

In the first years of its operations, LTCM returned large profits. But then, in the words of the program's narrator: “In the summer of 1997, across Thailand, property prices plummeted. This sparked a panic that swept throughout Asia. As banks went bust from Japan to Indonesia, people took to the streets—events so improbable they had never been included in anyone's model.”

Then came the Russian default in August 1998 for which LTCM's models had similarly not accounted.

Such is the speculative character of the operation of US and global financial markets that in the coming period seemingly “abnormal” events—something as apparently innocuous as a buy-back operation by the US Treasury, not to speak of an eruption of the class struggle—could well spark a major financial meltdown. The warning signs are already clear.
 
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Wonder Woman wrote:
P

I hope this isn't a bad time to bring this up but I have always wondered about whether or not the market drops suddenly and quickly in 1 day when a crash occurs. Does anyone know about this in relation to the last 30 yrs or less?
WW.gif






2/24/2000
$40.83

2/25/2000
$40.88

2/28/2000
$40.96

2/29/2000
$42.24

3/1/2000
$43.29

3/2/2000
$43.09

3/3/2000
$44.36

3/6/2000
$44.53

3/7/2000
$44.05

3/8/2000
$44.18

3/9/2000
$45.18

3/10/2000
$45.14

3/13/2000
$43.91

3/14/2000
$42.50

3/15/2000
$41.43

3/16/2000
$42.74

3/17/2000
$43.07

3/20/2000
$41.17

3/21/2000
$41.51

3/22/2000
$42.92

3/23/2000
$43.17

3/24/2000
$42.28

3/27/2000
$42.06

3/28/2000
$41.18

3/29/2000
$39.75

3/30/2000
$38.73

3/31/2000
$39.61

4/3/2000
$37.13

4/4/2000
$36.11

4/5/2000
$36.61

4/6/2000
$37.76

4/7/2000
$38.72

4/10/2000
$36.76

4/11/2000
$35.82

4/12/2000
$34.09

4/13/2000
$33.45

4/14/2000
$30.64


These prices are from 2000 in the Wilshire. As you can see, usually if the market drops big time, notnecessarily crashes mind you, it will take awhile to find a bottom. Now on the 14th you can see that it dropped about 10% in one day. This is about the biggest I've seen except later in the same year in Dec. we had a drop of 17% one day. But even then, the market was slowly dropping leading up to it so one had ample warning to get out.

I'm assuming you're afraid you might lose everything over night. This won't happen unless we go through the great depression again. The only reason most people lost a lot of money in the early 2000's was because no one paid attention to there retirement accounts, or knew how.
 
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Wonder Woman,

Regarding the 1987 market crash - the market dropped like an elevator that was out of control. Later in time my daughter asked me what did I do when the market crashed - I told her politely that was the day I filled my shoes - and being still young she inquired with what. You can guess, it relates to Al Gore and his 1.6 gallon legacy.

I actually stayed home from work the next day - ready to pull the trigger and cut and run. I felt like I was sitting in the seat of a quad fifty, turned on and ready to fire. My contrary nature ruled my emotions and I held my positions and survived to do battle again another day. You should have seen those 50 million Frenchman run. The same thing basically happened on 9/11 but the world is ok. And after we getdone killing another one million rag head insurgents from all over the Arab world the earth will be better for everyone. That was the renegade speaking - seems like a have a dual personality. I hope AG has something constructive to say tonight. But I learned many years ago don't listen to what they say - watch what they do.

Do you think a fire extinguisher would work on DMA?
 
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Mike and Mlk-man,

Did I ever tell you about the time The Technician accused me of calling or at least implying that he was of all characters the Chicken Little. He was actually insulted -has anything from the sky landed on you two "dumbells" yet? Becareful though because when the stars line up one might get kicked out and land on you.

Can you tell the renegade is looking for bear trouble today?

The advance/decline line is fairly flat today - but there is action going on under the Dow and sp500. This is just the kind of action that can open up with summer type surprises. Let's rally that bond a little more - and give AG some indigestion. He doesn't have any wiggle room - the market is leading the Fed. I would be more worried about deflation than inflation- especially in the real estate pits.

Any way - just keep having fun - don't be overly sensitive. Mike, you got a bazooka.
 
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mlk_man wrote:
WHo's wasting the time? Look in the mirror MT............

Okay, let me try to explain this like I'm talking to a toddler:

30-year is 4.25%, correct? Are there any short term rates above 4.25%? NO? WELL WELL, good job John-boy. You can take that "dunce cap" off now.

Oh btw, before you say "overnight rates are higher than 3-month rates", please bear in mind, get it "bear", heheh, 3-month bond rates are NOT consider long term.

Thank you very much, have a nice day, kisssssssssssssssss

M_M
Until you get the basic terminologycorrect perhaps you should not guess with your comments. Some people on this board are trying to learn and others have a better understanding. You are not helping the people that are just starting out with their very basic building blocks of financial knowledge - the terms. For the people more advanced you are clownlike in your behavior.

Everyone that does not agree with you gets attacked.

Let me paint it for you again.

Overnight rate 3%. 6 month 2.99.

If short term securities offer a higher yield, then the curve is said to be inverted.

Can you grasp this basic concept? Or do you just want to admit you have no idea what you are talking about? Or better yet you are wrong will not admit it but instead attack the person trying to point out for others on this board you are not correct.

It is not the duration it is shorter term over longer term rates.

You are taking thedefination to an incorrect extreme. No rate is over the 30 year so yield curve is not inverted. That is total and complete line of stupidity.

6 month yield higher then the overnight isan inverted yield curve.

You are immature, throw a lot oflies/errorsup on this board, not helpful to anyone, will not admit you made a mistake and a waste of time to listen too.

That is not a personal attack. That is just the facts.

You get banned. Say you will not attack again and again again. Act like a human for a week or two then attack anyone that does not think exactly like you or bow to your incorrect line of thinking.

You are the worse kind of person to have on a board with people trying to retire at a half decent age and for those starting out.

If anyone is a toddler it is you and you should be banned again and never allowed back on this board.

You have thrown a lot of doo doo on this board. When someone tries to point out you are not using the correct terminlogy you attack them.

Maybe you should be a lurker and not butt into conversations you do not understand anything about. And just maybe do a little research and learn a little and NOT GUESS all the time.

Think about how idiotic you look. You bash me for saying the yield curve is not inverted. Then post a chart with a inverted yield curve. Either you can not read a chart are you just get by, by feeding people a line of bull all day.
 
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