The Big 3 - Bail out or Bust

Will GM become 'Government Motors'?
Stephen Manning, AP Business Writer
On Wednesday April 29, 2009, 7:05 pm EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) -- If the government takes a majority stake in General Motors, will it end up taking the wheel, too?

Under a restructuring plan put forth this week by GM, the ailing automaker would give majority ownership to the federal government to stave off bankruptcy. That handoff would amount to an extraordinary partial nationalization of the maker of Buicks, Cadillacs and Chevys that has been an independent company since 1908.

The Obama administration has said it isn't interested in running an auto company, but with that big of a stake, some analysts say the government would probably be tempted to push its own policies on such issues as alternative fuel vehicles and unions. And that could affect the types of cars that roll off GM's assembly lines.

"The fear here is that a company owned by the government would move toward the do-good results, not the bottom line," said Gerald Meyers, a University of Michigan business professor and former CEO of American Motors Corp.

GM's proposal would give the government more than 50 percent of the automaker's stock in exchange for forgiving $10 billion in government loans. The United Auto Workers union would end up with a 39 percent stake.

The plan is far from a sure thing. Holders of GM's $27 billion in unsecured debt have dismissed it as unfair because they would lose most of their investment. And the White House repeated this week that it doesn't want to own GM or any other auto company.

But through its broad efforts to rescue the auto industry, the White House is already deeply involved in the operations of GM and Chrysler. It has sunk nearly $25 billion into the two companies and their financial arms, and is ready to give them even more if their restructuring plans are deemed workable. The Obama administration has already flexed its muscle by forcing out Rick Wagoner as GM's CEO.

GM said Monday that it would still retain day-to-day control of the company. But at the direction of the Treasury Department, GM will replace several members of its board of directors at its annual meeting in August. In most corporations, the board sets long-term policies and goals. If the handover plan goes through, at least one of those seats will probably be held by a government representative who would look out for the taxpayers' interests.

"The U.S. government as a major shareholder would probably ensure that the board is doing their role," GM chief financial officer Ray Young said in an interview this week.

Exactly what interests the government would look out for remains to be seen.

Some analysts said that with government ownership of GM, the company could be used to press issues like building more fuel-efficient vehicles and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

GM, which spent recent years selling SUVs and other gas-guzzlers, is already making a push into hybrid and electric vehicle technology and is spinning off the behemoth Hummer. But its best-selling vehicle is still the Chevy Silverado, a full-size pickup truck.

In another possible conflict of interest, the White House could find itself in the odd position of being a partner with the UAW while simultaneously sitting on the board as it negotiates contracts with the union.

"This almost by definition injects politics into the reorganization," said James Gattuso, a scholar at the Washington-based Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

However, Michael Ettlinger, vice president for economic policy at the Washington-based Center for American Progress, a liberal policy group, said that while the government would have an interest in protecting its investment in GM, it probably wouldn't try to dictate how the company does business or what types of vehicles it makes.

As a member of GM's board, the government would have a responsibility to the company and its shareholders to make sound business decisions, not those based on policy, Ettlinger said. "The administration's strategy to deal with our energy challenges is not to take over automobile companies and make them do things. That is a losing strategy," he said.

Meyers said the British auto industry, which went through a period of nationalization during the 1970s, holds some clues to government ownership. In that case, he said, pressure groups like unions held powerful sway through their allies in the government.

"It's a populism kind of management," he said.

As for how long Washington would stay in the auto business, Ettlinger said the government might hold a stake in GM for several years, but added: "I don't think that long-term the federal government is interested in running companies."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Will-GM-become-Government-apf-15077682.html
 
Probably call it AutoVAZ-Amerika or something like that.

I am having a hard time feeling any sympathy for GM or the UAW on this issue since I don't see how they can justify the crap they built in the 80s and the don't care attitude toward the consumer. Or how they are operating on their seemingly profit for all of us basis. A little prudence in the past would have given them a nest egg to fall back on in hard times. Seems like everyone involved only wanted to get theirs now.

My wife and I have bought only american made vehicles most of our lives and suffered through what in several cases have been real pieces of s**t. GM vehicles are better now than ever but the managment and workers screwed themselves through the reputation they have from what they built in the past and the lack of customer service and willingness to fix anything. (they all do that, it's normal)

If I ran my financials the way GM has for years...wait, I see, I'd be getting a government bail out. So I screwed myself by being prudent!
 
UAW's concessions at Chrysler were ratified the day before yesterday- and included $7 an hour pay cut, changes to work rules, layoff of over 3/4's of members who were working in 2001, and reduction in health care plan for retirees.

When it is over, Chrysler retains 1/4th of the number of workers it had in 2000.

And senior citizen retirees lose cash for both retirement pension and health care. They retain some of it, IF the bankruptcy judge agrees, and some if it will be new stock issued, making UAW Retiree Trust Fund the largest single owner of the company- as it will be given stock in exchange for the Union giving up it's claim to the cash owed by the company to the pension and health funds.

From the UAW website today:

----------------------------------------------------
For Release: Thursday, April 30, 2009
UAW to present ratified agreements to Bankruptcy Court

DETROIT - The UAW will join with the U.S. government, Chrysler and Fiat in urging the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to give immediate approval to labor agreements ratified by UAW members, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said today.

President Obama today announced continued government support for Chrysler as it continues its restructuring process.

“UAW Vice President General Holiefield and I spoke with President Obama this morning, and he asked us to let our active and retired members at Chrysler know how much he appreciates the substantial sacrifices they have made to help save this company,” said UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. “The president’s goal is clear: to assure the long term future of Chrysler.”

The next step in that process will be the filing of a petition for relief under
Chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code.

The first order of business in the bankruptcy proceedings will be to seek court approval of the agreements recently reached between the UAW, the U.S. Treasury, Chrysler and Fiat. Motions seeking that approval will be filed immediately.

“We will urge the court to act swiftly,” said Gettelfinger. The agreements incorporate the modifications to the UAW collective bargaining agreement and retiree health agreement that were ratified by the UAW’s membership in voting that concluded yesterday.

Chrysler, the U.S. Treasury Department and Fiat all remain in full support of these UAW agreements and will join in urging the Bankruptcy Court to give them immediate approval. At the same time, the parties will be urging the Bankruptcy Court to give immediate approval to the terms of the Chrysler/Fiat alliance.

Under the UAW agreements, the pension plan covering UAW-represented employees and retirees will continue in effect without change. The agreements also include the previously announced changes to the retiree medical program, including 55 percent ownership of the restructured company by the retiree benefits trust fund.

“The UAW agreements have been ratified by our membership and approved by the United States Treasury, Chrysler and Fiat,” said Gettelfinger. “We believe it is in the best interests of all concerned for the Bankruptcy Court to give those agreements swift and complete approval. We look forward to presenting those agreements to the court.”

“The UAW membership at Chrysler, both active and retired, has once again demonstrated its strength and steadfastness in the face of great uncertainty,” said UAW Vice President General Holiefield, who directs the union’s Chrysler Department. “While we work to complete the process of court approval, the steps taken today are important milestones in restoring a great American car company to financial health, keeping manufacturing jobs here in the United States, and preserving a secure retirement for tens of thousands of American workers.”
 
28,659 more workers thrown out of work as of today:

murderbymoney.jpg



"A group of investment firms and hedge funds decided to hold out for the prospect of an unjustified taxpayer-funded bailout ... They were hoping that everybody else would make sacrifices and they would have to make none."
– President Obama on who caused Chrysler bankruptcy

Obama Aims At Hedge Funds Amid Chrysler Bankruptcy
By Joseph Checkler
NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--President Barack Obama's scolding of hedge funds sparked an immediate backlash from fund managers who resent what they see as an increasingly heavy-handed approach from Washington.

Obama, during remarks about Chrysler LLC's bankruptcy filing, said a group of investment firms and hedge funds held out for "an unjustified taxpayer-funded bailout," hoping they could avoid the sacrifices that other stakeholders had made. "I don't stand with those who held out when everybody else is making sacrifices," he said.

The comments, which came after an unnamed administration official went so far as to say the holdouts weren't acting in the national interest, overshadowed some of the details of the historic Chapter 11 filing and news of Chrysler's alliance with Fiat SpA (FIATY). The fact that Obama expressed his displeasure more than once during his remarks seemed to indicate he was picking a fight with hedge funds, and it didn't play well with many on Wall Street.

"So what?" said Phil Goldstein, who runs Bulldog Investors, referring to the decision by some funds to hold out. "Aren't you entitled to reject a deal?" said Goldstein, who has railed against hedge-fund regulation in the past.
Henry Bregstein, who is co-managing partner at law firm Katten Muchin Rosenman and who represents hedge funds, said it is possible that accepting the government's offer could have theoretically exposed the funds that Obama criticized to lawsuits from investors.

"The managers of those investment firms and hedge funds have fiduciary responsibilities to their investors," Bregstein said.

A call to the White House press office seeking comment on whether Obama was criticizing hedge funds to send a message beyond the Chrysler negotiations wasn't immediately returned.

In speaking specifically about Chrysler, Obama was singling out three institutions - hedge-fund managers Perella Weinberg Partners LP and Stairway Capital Advisors LLC, and mutual-fund operator Oppenheimer Funds - which were the only firms publicly known to have been part of the group that rejected the Treasury Department's $2 billion debt-reduction deal. Perella Weinberg broke from the group Thursday, issuing a press release saying it has accepted the offer.

Stairway didn't immediately return a call seeking comment. The group of 20 creditors, calling themselves the "non-TARP Chrysler lenders," told their side of the story in a press release. The group refers to itself as non-TARP to distinguish it from the large banks that have received government bailout funds and that agreed to the Chrysler debt restructuring terms.

The group said it offered to take a 40% haircut on its investment, even though some groups down the legal priority chain were "being given recoveries of up to 50% or more and being allowed to take out billions of dollars." The group said its proposals were rejected or ignored.

"The government has risked overturning the rule of law and practices that have governed our world-leading bankruptcy code for decades," the statement said. The group said it has a fiduciary obligation to its investors, naming specifically "many of the country's teachers unions, major pension and retirement plans and school endowments" that invest with those creditors. The group invested in $1 billion worth of Chrysler loans.

Oppenheimer put out a statement echoing many of the same things said by the group.

Other hedge-fund companies owning Chrysler loans, including Elliott Management Corp., took the government's deal.

A person at a hedge-fund firm that owns Chrysler loans, speaking anonymously, told Dow Jones Newswires that the difference between what loanholders would get in bankruptcy and out of bankruptcy wasn't that much, meaning the non-TARP lenders are making a political statement more than anything.

"Are they taking reputational risk for pennies?" asked the person. "Do the math on the recovery levels. It doesn't make sense for them to have held out for purely economic value."



 
One Mans View on Chryser's bankruptcy, interesting comments also.

Chrysler's Bankruptcy: Historic Changes for Markets?

After reading numerous comments on Chrysler’s filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it’s clear that lawyers, investors and bond buyers are very worried about how the president is blaming and bullying Chrysler’s creditors for the company’s bankruptcy.

The consensus of all but the pro-union and pro-Obama types is that the president’s disrespect for 200 years of bankruptcy law precedent will make it very difficult for companies to sell bonds and borrow money in the private markets. The president is in the process of destroying the credibility of borrowers and the trust that has made our corporate debt markets work for generations.

Unionized corporations will find it will be especially difficult and expensive to borrow from banks and bond buyers. This is because the unions have so much political clout with Obama and Congress that a lender can never count on the contracts that they write with borrowers being enforced. The Democrats seem bent on rewriting the laws in the favor of unions and at the expense of lenders.

If this nonsense continues, the Rust Belt’s manufacturers are in big trouble. Most depend on selling billions in bonds to the private markets, and they work hard to maintain reasonably good credit ratings to keep their borrowing costs under control.

.........

http://seekingalpha.com/article/134...tcy-historic-changes-for-markets?source=yahoo

Because I feel that failure should not be rewarded, although Rahim Emmanual has been quoted on CNBC commercials, promoting his upcoming interview, that the American People better get used to the Feds rewarding Failure, (yes he said that, I rewound it 3 times to make sure)and since I've been against TARP/bailouts/welfare from the beginning, I am curious, since that horse has already left the barn, does this guy or the following comments have any validity? I know the road to hell is paved with good intentions, are we headed that way with this bankrupcty and the conclusions he draws or is what he is saying an impossibility?

If companies were to big to fail, why didn't we break them up like Ma Bell and Standard oil?

Curious minds want to know.

CB
 
And isn't this the second time for Chrysler? Remember the K car? :eek:

Yes I do and I also remember that any commercial type vehicle the Air Force bought for years was a Chrysler product. I was told this was not so and I do believe that staff cars for higher ranks were likely something that would not fall apart in the first month.

Chrysler had quality control problems for years. I drove a lot of D200 crew cab 4x4 pickups over the years, the last decent ones were 1970 models. I picked up a brand new 78 at the motor pool, filled it with gas and at the first stopsign I had about 3 inches of gasoline on the floor. The gas tank had never been sealed at the top. My fault...shoulda checked the structeral integrity of the entire vehicle before taking it (or was it the CMSgt in charge of vehicle maintenance trying to get out of his fuc*up...nah a Chief would NEVER do that)

And the M-880 series...anyone who ever dealt with them knows what a POS the entire run was.

Myself or people I worked with were stranded a lot by these so called "power wagons" and usually were told not to take them off the pavement. Fat chance some of the places we routinely had to go. We definitely missed the old IHs, slow but indestructible.

I submit that the first bailout in 79 hurt national defense because Chryslers vehicles were not "mission ready" or road worthy.
.
 
Come to think of it Pess..you're right..The G-cans we drove in the field ( I was in charge our sector motor pool) was all these POS Dodges and Chryslers...Man, those Aries K cars could barely get out of their own way...:sick:
 
If companies were to big to fail, why didn't we break them up like Ma Bell and Standard oil?

Curious minds want to know.

CB

Too big to fail?

We didn't break them up because the political right was all gung-ho to reduce regulation. They spent the last 30 years yelling that government needed to get out of the way of business and let them grow bigger. So we did.

Now, we're left with multi-national Banks that are too big to fail, and multi-national corporations that are too big to fail.

And, since they are no longer just single-country entities, if one country tries to regulate them, they simply move all the assets to another country with less regulation.

We were able to break apart Ma Bell because it was an American company.

We were able to break apart Standard Oil because it was an American company.

You can't pass a law in Congress to regulate BP Petroleum, Exxon, JP Morgan, or Barclays- they operate on too many continents for any single government to regulate them properly.
 
Too big to fail?

We didn't break them up because the political right was all gung-ho to reduce regulation. They spent the last 30 years yelling that government needed to get out of the way of business and let them grow bigger. So we did. ...
Can you say "repeal of Glass-Steagall"? I knew you could.:worried:

Lady
 
Thanks James,

I didn't really need to even ask the question. since the answer is it's always the evil right that causes all the problems, thank goodness we have the messiah, his brown shirts and the libs at the helm to bring eutopia to the world, since they have all the answers. Our troubles are all over. If we'd only known that one party rule, wait now we can have a one world gov't would've been the answer to our prayers.:rolleyes: We should've done it over 200 years ago. What were those crazy founding fathers thinking of. People now have all the answers and have diligently studied history so as not to make the same mistake twice.... yeah that's the ticket :rolleyes:

The answer to all the problems of the world, it's the rights fault. I'ts gotten so tiresome to here this parrotting everytime. Well now the left has it all so day is saved. But I've never seen a liberal yet take responsibility for anything wrong. It's always someones elses fault. If they put as much effort in actually sovling problems, instead of finding who to blame, we'd already be our of this mess. But lets keep pumping out the money, cause that's really worked for us for years.

Well at least prosperity is just around the corner for all our future generations, if we can just keep those evil conservatives out of the way.

I feel so much better now. More regulation and nore government, we know how efficient big govefrnment is, especially now that the elite are in charge and can help us poor knuckle draggers muddle thru life.;)

That's it for me. To many fricking socialists out their and they;ve decided the constitution has outlived it's usefulness, becasue from what I read and see must people don't really give a damn what happens to the US Constitution as long as they get their check and things paid for. JFK's famous saying has just been reversed...what can I get from the gov't, not what can I do for the country.

So have at it.:(

CB
 
CB, my good friend, I'm sorry that the current administration has raised your blood pressure. That's just not good for you, you know. :)

This blue dog democrat could point out the constitutionality of things like the mis-named Patriot Act, and you and I could go back and forth, and neither of us would budge the other's point of view.

I have a different suggestion. Let's both go outside for a bit and smell the fresh air, and see how much those fledgling tomato plants have grown since the last time we checked, and look at the buds on the roses. That will be a lot more productive thing for both of us to do. ;)

Love ya!
Lady
 
CB, my good friend, I'm sorry that the current administration has raised your blood pressure. That's just not good for you, you know. :)

This blue dog democrat could point out the constitutionality of things like the mis-named Patriot Act, and you and I could go back and forth, and neither of us would budge the other's point of view.

I have a different suggestion. Let's both go outside for a bit and smell the fresh air, and see how much those fledgling tomato plants have grown since the last time we checked, and look at the buds on the roses. That will be a lot more productive thing for both of us to do. ;)

Love ya!
Lady

Thanks Lady,

I'll going to do my best to spend much more time away smelling the roses. But one last comment, I run another board for heart patients for the last 5 years, a lot from different countries, that have socializd medicine and to a person, they say the biggest mistake the US can make will be to adopt a European, UK or Canadian style medical plan, because it doesn't work and now has become so expensive that the young and old are allowed to die, if some faceless gov't drone says the return is not worth the money spent. This is from many folks that live with this type of medicine and we here think it the cats meow.

And you wonder why I get frustrated by the unknowledgeable that have never experience it. Well then so be, hopefully everyone here's future children will meet a specific size, because in those countries, babies that don't meet a certain size and/or weight are allowed to die and don't count towards the countries baby mortality rate. That's why ours is so much igher than those countries, because we go to extremes to save them all. I know, my brother worked NICU for over 15 years. That's what those ignorant of socialized medicine don't realize and that's real sad, people are making a decision of such importance without all the facts.

Well, we're going to have to suffer and have the young and old that are no longer productive allow to die, before we believe it, because it's happening now in foreign countries, its just our MSM is not reporting it. And these countries are also right now not prescribing meds for older folks that they used to prescribe. We don't here that over here, but folks think it's just nutty, paranoid CB rambling on. I'll admt to it, but I'll also have the fats before I start these little rants. :nuts:

I guess like a mule some people need to be hit between the eyes like a rented mule, before they can believe it. It's in the foreign papers, but you sure won't find it in our MSM.

Thanks for caring,
CB
 
Now, ol' buddy, don't spend TOO much time away. We'd miss you too much! And I don't want to be the only one on the board who's fingers refuse to spell correctly! :cheesy:

On a much more serious note, I do know that part of the reason our country has higher costs is because we value the sanctity of every life, not just the most viable ones. A couple of decades ago, I had twins that were born too early and died in a NICU, but before they passed I was gratefully astounded at the measures that were taken to try to save them. Just a few years ago, my daughter had twins that were born too early, and they are both healthy toddlers now, mainly from the heroic measures that were taken by the wonderful people who worked in the NICU.

So I truly have a gut-level belief in the truth of your last post. :) And you don't need to thank me for caring. We're a family on this MB. Sometimes a disfunctional one :laugh: but a family, nevertheless. And caring is what families do.

Lady
 
...

And the M-880 series...anyone who ever dealt with them knows what a POS the entire run was.
.

An M-880 - now for sale on E-bay:

It's been hard at work for the taxpayers for 32 years. Pretty good, if you ask me.

dfcb_12.JPG


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-Dodge-M880-CUCV-4X4-Pickup-Truck-Very-Low-Miles_W0QQitemZ300312038496QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item45ebfe0c60&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1308


BY the way- the military selected and bought the M880 long before Chrysler asked for loans- this one is a 1977 M880. Chrysler got federal loan guarantees, as a result of the Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979, which wasn't actually signed into law until 1980. Chrysler stock took off, and the government made a nice profit as a result.





 
Not a single dent or scratch in the bed and looks like a relatively fresh paint job. Just over 60K miles in 32 years. Working hard I doubt. Maybe "lost" for years at DRMO. :laugh:
 
Not a single dent or scratch in the bed and looks like a relatively fresh paint job. Just over 60K miles in 32 years. Working hard I doubt. Maybe "lost" for years at DRMO. :laugh:

I never said it didn't make an adequate pickup once you got the fuel leaks fixed and the electrical system working. Just stay on the pavement or if on gravel go slow or you will break something. It was a failure as a tactical vehicle (M- series) and any time loaded close to max cargo weight and taken in to an off road environment it would break down or just plain break.
 
GM, Chrysler to cut up to 3,000 dealers: sources

Wed May 13, 2009 4:44pm EDT
By Soyoung Kim and John Crawley

DETROIT/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - General Motors Corp and Chrysler aim to drop as many as 3,000 U.S. dealers and are expected to begin sending notifications as early as Thursday, three people briefed on the still developing plans said.

GM, facing a U.S. government-imposed deadline of June 1 to restructure or file for bankruptcy, is expected to send termination notices to up to 2,000 dealers -- a third of its roughly 6,000 U.S. dealers, the sources told Reuters.

Chrysler, which filed for bankruptcy on April 30, will also tell up to 1,000 of its 3,189 U.S. dealers it is terminating their franchise agreements, according to the sources who asked not to be identified because the controversial closure plans have not been yet announced.

The moves to shut down auto dealerships underscores how the economic pain caused by the downward spiral of both automakers -- now operating under U.S. government oversight -- is spreading beyond their home base in Detroit.

The development comes as dealer representatives have stepped up lobbying in Washington to try to slow down closures they estimate would cost 200,000 dealership jobs.

The involuntary terminations are also widely expected to prompt a legal challenge from dealers who are independent retail networks protected by state franchise laws.

Chrysler spokeswoman Kathy Graham said the automaker had not announced its dealership closure plans.

"We have not announced anything at this point," she said. "We are not done with our process at this point."

A GM spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

More than 100 members from the National Automobile Dealers Association, a group representing the country's 20,000 new car dealers, met members of the House of Representatives and Senate in Washington on Wednesday, asking them to intervene with the Obama administration's autos task force on planned reductions.

"A rapid cut of dealers is a bad idea," NADA Chairman John McEleney said in a statement.

McEleney said his organization does not oppose dealer consolidation, but believes the administration and the companies are moving too fast.
NADA leaders are scheduled to meet the U.S. auto task force on Thursday.

The task force, headed by former investment banker Steve Rattner, is driving the restructuring of both companies, which are planning to close plants, cut jobs and restructure dealer lineups to establish viability.

GM, which is operating with $15.4 billion of U.S. government loans, has to cut debt and operating costs and present a new restructuring plan to officials by June 1 to avoid a government-controlled bankruptcy.

Both GM and Chrysler have faced pressure to cut struggling dealerships to bring their large sales networks line with those run by more successful rivals led by Toyota Motor Corp. Toyota, No. 2 in U.S. sales behind GM, has about 1,200 dealerships in the country.

Chrysler is using the bankruptcy process to move faster toward that goal, while GM plans to tell its dealerships they are being dropped for not meeting standards for capitalization and profitability.

GM wants to cut its dealer network to 3,605 from over 6,246 at the end of 2008. But it has not specified how it would achieve that and how many dealerships would be involuntarily terminated and how many it expected to go bankrupt or shut down on their own.

Chrysler's plan has remained under wraps.

GM Chief Executive Friz Henderson said on Monday the automaker was completing its plans for dealership consolidation this week.

Chrysler Chief Executive Bob Nardelli said in a memo to staff on Tuesday, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters, that the automaker would determine how to organize its dealer networks during the rest of the week.

Carroll Smith of Monument Chevrolet in Houston, one of the 100 new car dealers who lobbied lawmakers in Washington, warned that a rapid wind down of outlets could lead to a flood of new vehicles hitting the market simultaneously at much lower prices, further undercutting hard-hit dealers.
"Dealers are not cost. What we are retail and distribution," Smith added.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE54C64K20090513?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
 
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