It has started...

[McDuck]

Obama to end 'don't ask, don't tell'

 

[McDuck]

PAGLIA: Obama's early stumbles

 

[McDuck]

 

[amoeba]

Geitner is an idiot; he should withdraw; he won't be confirmed; I sure woudn't confirm him - I pay my taxes. He has no excuse. He was informed at the IMF, everybody else paid their taxes, aand he just didn't do it. This wasn't a mistake. Screw him.

 

[Steadygain]

Obama to end 'don't ask, don't tell'

I guess my main issue is whether the individual is capable of fully serving the U.S.A. irregardless of their personal beliefs. To me the main thing is being 100% Combat Soldier and nothing less; being able to shelf your religious convictions (or whatever) to be able to kill without hesitation (remorse or baggage) and ultimately to accomplish the Mission (whatever that may be) for the better whole. If you push anything that limits that - YOU CAN'T FIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN - YOU CAN'T FIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE GAY - BECAUSE YOU'RE BLACK, WHITE, OR WHATEVER...I think that's wrong. So maybe - just maybe - we're moving in a better direction. It's not an issue I ever had to directly deal with.

Geitner is an idiot; he should withdraw; he won't be confirmed; I sure woudn't confirm him - I pay my taxes. He has no excuse. He was informed at the IMF, everybody else paid their taxes, aand he just didn't do it. This wasn't a mistake. Screw him.

It's like 'NOT PUTTING FRESH OIL ON THE GASKET' prior to putting a new oil filter on. I just don't see how anyone could not pay their taxes...or put a film of oil on. To me some things are so obvious it's absolutely impossible to avoid UNLESS YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

 

[McDuck]

It's like 'NOT PUTTING FRESH OIL ON THE GASKET' prior to putting a new oil filter on.

I thought you were suppose to use the old (just drained) oil to do that.

 

[Frixxxx]

I guess my main issue is whether the individual is capable of fully serving the U.S.A. irregardless of their personal beliefs. To me the main thing is being 100% Combat Soldier and nothing less; being able to shelf your religious convictions (or whatever) to be able to kill without hesitation (remorse or baggage) and ultimately to accomplish the Mission (whatever that may be) for the better whole. If you push anything that limits that - YOU CAN'T FIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN - YOU CAN'T FIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE GAY - BECAUSE YOU'RE BLACK, WHITE, OR WHATEVER...I think that's wrong. So maybe - just maybe - we're moving in a better direction. It's not an issue I ever had to directly deal with.

Unfortuantely, it's not the individual, it's the majority. Individuals are evaluated for military duty. If they pass, they're in. If not, hit the highway. The issue is when thrown into the military population. If being gay is not accepted, then the individual WILL be discriminated against. Thus, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

It's like 'NOT PUTTING FRESH OIL ON THE GASKET' prior to putting a new oil filter on. I just don't see how anyone could not pay their taxes...or put a film of oil on. To me some things are so obvious it's absolutely impossible to avoid UNLESS YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

I believe this is the standard: I won't be doing anything wrong until I get caught!

I know why he didn't pay taxes - His level of integrity allowed him!

 

[Steadygain]

Unfortuantely, it's not the individual, it's the majority. Individuals are evaluated for military duty. If they pass, they're in. If not, hit the highway. The issue is when thrown into the military population. If being gay is not accepted, then the individual WILL be discriminated against. Thus, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

That's an excellent POINT Frixxxx - thanks man. Actually it's not just 'being gay' as not accepted - because that in itself would not come to play in the kind of unit I was with. Nor would religion or anything else. The ANSWER is making the qualifications to get in a lot harder. Seperate those who are 'true soldiers' with a fully committed and loyal mindset from those joining for a paycheck and 'pushing individuality'. It's only with a 'unit mindset' you can possibly be what the military needs. INTEGRITY is everything; make boot camp a lot different so that my life depends on the gay guy - or muslim - or whatever - until everyone of us knows through and through the only way we survive is being fully committed and fully prepared to do whatever it takes. THIS MINDSET will over ride personal beliefs and allow the individual to become exactly what is needed to accomplish any Mission they could come up with.

I believe this is the standard: I won't be doing anything wrong until I get caught!

I know why he didn't pay taxes - His level of integrity allowed him!

I would guarantee you - if he developed the mindset noted above there is no way in hell he'd have that kind of attitude.

You're right Integrity is everything. Excellent points bro.

 

[Silverbird]

If gays were truely unacceptable for military duty, they would not get drafted. It would be like flat feet, diabetes, asthma, etc. It has worked fine, the gays only get kicked out during peacetime, it is nearly impossible to get out of the draft simply because you are gay. It works fine for the Israelis, the Brits, and it's worked fine for us during wartime, which is when it's important.

Just like anyone else in the military, no Fraternizing on duty, you can't be in the same unit as your partner, and all those other rules cover a long term relationship. Swinging single stuff is out for hetrosexual relationships in the military, so being overly fraternizing is out no matter your preference, so others in your unit should be safe (plus the lover should NOT be in the same unit, see above so there should not be that bias either).

If it doesn't truely make you undraftable, and the existing rules keep it from turning into Love Boat, I don't care if they are gay or straight as long as they keep their hands off my husband. :toung: (I'm joking, he's not in the military, he HAS flat feet, asthma AND diabetes).

 

[Steadygain]

Unfortuantely, it's not the individual, it's the majority. Individuals are evaluated for military duty. If they pass, they're in. If not, hit the highway. The issue is when thrown into the military population. If being gay is not accepted, then the individual WILL be discriminated against. Thus, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

Frixxxx,
The combat unit I was in had no women, and none of us believed a woman would be cut out to think like we thought and do the stuff we did - so if any woman was put in our company - our unit - or anything attached to us she would have been despised and it would have been almost impossible for her to survive.

My last 6 months they sent me to a base for Rest and Relaxation, and I was the Motor Pool Sgt - in charge of all the trucks, jeeps, and equipment involved with transportation. This was the first time women were in my Company. I found women were largely pampered, and they were fine with that and came to expect it. ONE, and only ONE, joined to prove herself. She did not want to be pampered, she wanted to show her commitment and prove she was ready to serve and do whatever it takes to prove her worth. So I trained her and she proved to be THE BEST SOLDIER I EVER KNEW. No one had a better mindset; no one tried harder and no one wanted to be pushed beyond the limits more than her.

If the higer ups told me to get a team for a high level Mission; a covert operation of major importance SHE WOULD BE MY FIRST PICK. So this is a tough one. Had this woman been sent to our Combat Unit it would have been almost impossible for her to show her worth. If she became 'the weak link' it's because we did not allow her to show the strength she had.

Anyway, some situations may not have ONE right answer.


Silverbird, I was writting as you were - so please don't think I over looked or ignored your comments

 

[Frixxxx]

If the higer ups told me to get a team for a high level Mission; a covert operation of major importance SHE WOULD BE MY FIRST PICK. So this is a tough one. Had this woman been sent to our Combat Unit it would have been almost impossible for her to show her worth. If she became 'the weak link' it's because we did not allow her to show the strength she had.

Way to be a team player not discriminating against her. I'm still in (AF) and have just one female in my flight. Great kid, determined but just a run of the mill airman. I think she will blossom as she ages and gets more confident in her roles.

My comment on the weak link, for clarification, was to show that the discrimination IS the weak link. It is not the person. I personally do not start rating a person on personal choice, preference or anything except meeting our mission. In the Air force we have core values and this is how I measure my people:

Integrity first
Service before self
Excellence in all we do

If properly adhered to, I should never know or see if someone is gay, straight, black, white, protestant, muslim or anything but an airman ready to accomplish a mission.

Simply stated, If i am true to my commitment to serve and do it excellently then I am the epitome of an airman.

 

[Silverbird]

Re women: Expectations change, as society changes. We still do not sign up for the draft. This is not true everywhere, Israel drafts women. Expectation and societal changes can affect warfare in unexpected ways. The Israelis had to stop putting women visibly on the front line - unless they wanted the Arabs to fight to the last man. The Israelis found this out the hard way. But this may change again with the current wars, so far I haven't heard any evidence of this happening to female US soldiers. Since I have very bad eyesight, (and my age) I'm not draftable for military duty anyway so I'm not going to stick my neck out and say "yes we should be" or "No way!" on the draft women issue, since for me it's only a theoretical exercise.

[Gays, again are slightly different. Unless you are talking about back in the days of classic Greece, it's not like there are going to be all homosexual fighting units. And your enemy is not going to take the time to ask each soldier.]

 

[2EASY]

Reference gays in the military....we would have to build gay barracks. I am serious. Why do you think we separate men and women in the barracks? For obvious reasons - so they can't see each other naked in the bathrooms. Why - because one might excite the other. Don't believe me? Okey straight men ..ask yourselves...do you love your wives? Of course we do. Now imiagine yourselves in the "open bay" shower with a bunch of naked military women in the same shower. Of course you wouldn't touch them...for you are a professional military man. BUT - would you get excited? Now apply this reasoning to gay men in a shower with a bunch of straight military men. Do we really want to subject those gay men to this torture? same rules apply to gay women.

 

[Silverbird]

If getting excited is a problem we'd have to ban dirty magazines too and even going to some beaches. My motto is, you can't stop them for looking but you CAN stop them from touching. No one's complained about it during wartime as being a problem and it hasn't stopped gays from getting drafted. And when the chips are down, only on Classic Star Trek does the Captain kiss the nearest Yeoman and get himself fooled by lovely women...oh you know what I mean.

 

[Frixxxx]

Reference gays in the military....we would have to build gay barracks. I am serious. Why do you think we separate men and women in the barracks? For obvious reasons - so they can't see each other naked in the bathrooms. Why - because one might excite the other. Don't believe me? Okey straight men ..ask yourselves...do you love your wives? Of course we do. Now imiagine yourselves in the "open bay" shower with a bunch of naked military women in the same shower. Of course you wouldn't touch them...for you are a professional military man. BUT - would you get excited? Now apply this reasoning to gay men in a shower with a bunch of straight military men. Do we really want to subject those gay men to this torture? same rules apply to gay women.

Man, okay, I'll come back to you next week after that trip through my imagination. Open bay showers full of women. :nuts: Buster will be here in two shakes of a lamb's tail! :laugh: Thanks!

 

[2EASY]

If getting excited is a problem we'd have to ban dirty magazines too and even going to some beaches. My motto is, you can't stop them for looking but you CAN stop them from touching. No one's complained about it during wartime as being a problem and it hasn't stopped gays from getting drafted. And when the chips are down, only on Classic Star Trek does the Captain kiss the nearest Yeoman and get himself fooled by lovely women...oh you know what I mean.

Yea - but a man can't hide that excitement in the shower without praying a whole lot :embarrest:

 

[Silverbird]

Yeah, that won't last long, though he might pick up a nickname you can't write on a latrine wall, there's nothing like peer pressure.

 

[Steadygain]

If getting excited is a problem...My motto is, why look when you CAN touch. .

Quote may have been modified during transition


Silverbird,
I thought this sounds better...:embarrest:

Sometimes I just need to get Feisty once in awhile.

Have a wonderful weekend everyone...and memorize the quote as you're leaving

 

[McDuck]

Afghan foreign minister unhappy with Hillary -- Already?

 

[McDuck]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE50F5Q920090118?sp=true
Pricey inauguration party during economic collapse?