Home Networking (Griffins')

[350zCommTech]

I was looking at diagram with Verizon, and supposedly they will provide the DSL Modem and VOIP converter box (this saves me from having to purchase all new VOIP phones).

With VOIP, you can use the same phones you have now. Just wire one cat5 as 2 or 4 wire(better) telephone outlets. The other cat5 will be use strictly for Gigabit Lan(1000Mb). Or you can use 1 cat5 for both telephone and 100Mb Lan to save money(not recommended). With DSL, aren't you required to have at least an active phone line? It sort of defeats the purpose of VOIP, since you're going to be paying for that phone line that you might not use. Also, unless you live close to the central office, your speeds will suck. Have you considered going with cable for broadband?

I have not purchased a router or a server. Initially, I was going to use a desktop to substitute as the server. I was considering purchasing a seperate computer to use as a server, so I could store music and video on it and have the capability to pump it to any room in the house via the network and also for controlling internet access (for exactly the reason you stated).

You definitely want a separate computer for the server. You will need a router and a Gigabit switch. I have a Windows 2000 advance server that I use for domain, DHCP, file server(movies, mp3s, pictures...), and a VOIP server that I use in my home network, so that I can talk to my kids while we play multiplayer games. While this VOIP program can be used over the internet, I use Vonage's VOIP service for my telephone.

What is the difference between a domain server and proxy server, couldn't one computer serve to provide storage space, be the network control server and control the DSL Modem/internet (this is all new to me and I could use the help).

Yes, one computer can run many server programs. A domain server allows for centralized management and access control. You can have your family logon to a domain(Griffins network), as they're logging on to any computer in the house, using the same logon and password. You can put restrictions on time/days they can logon. You can restrict resources. i.e. Only you and your wife can access certain movies files....

If you just want a simple file server, than you don't need a domain server, any Windows 2000/XP computer will work fine to share files.

My other server computer is a Linux server. I use this one as my gateway(to the internet). It runs my external and internal firewalls. This is also where the proxy server resides. A proxy server acts as an access control for the internet. Here, you can restrict access by internet sites, internet ports, certain computers in the house, time and day, etc.....
It also logs every site or attempts to access a site.

The best thing about using Linux is that it's all free. Their are tons of good free programs out on the net.

My comptuter skills/knowledge is fairly limited. I am fairly adept at adding hardware (drives and cards) and I can maintain and upgrade operating systems and software. But I don't have any real knowledge of installing or building a network (I believe in learning by doing).

350z your advice and help is greatly appreciated.

No problem, I'll be glad to help.

 

[Griffin]

I appreciate the help. I have an extremely busy day ahead of me to clear my desk before I head to California tomorrow morning. Once, I get checked in out there I will get back to you on the network design. You have already touched on every major point/concern I have. You hit the nail on the head with where I am trying to go with this. Basically, I want to recreate exactly what you've done.

I am flexibile about going with cable as opposed to DSL (if the packaging/price is not cost prohibitive). I want to build in the capability/flexibility to go which ever direction becomes popular. I will install at least 2 cat 5 lines per station and install an extra cable run from the basement to the attic in case I ever switch from satellite to cable so I can keep the distribution point in the attic but run the feed in from the basement. I already have satellite, which I am happy with (and I have a considerable amount of money tied up in) so I hesitate to make the switch. My goal is to reduce my total monthly telecom bill without losing the entertainment flexibility and I am willing to lay down some upfront money to make that happen.

Right now I am paying close to $60 for telephone, $80 for satellite and $10 for dial up. Verizon just layed fiber through my neighborhood the last couple of months so I can finally consider going DSL (I'm not sure if Cable is an option yet, it wasn't last year when i first started looking into this).

Obviously, I've got some questions to answer, before moving on with designing the system.

Thanks again.

 

[ChemEng]

Should you switch to VOIP, I would recommend Sunrocket as a provider. Their unlimited plan is $200/year and they run regular specials that let you renew for $99/year afterwards. It doesnt get any cheaper than that for the same quality on par with Vonage. Highly recommended.

If anyone is interested in Sunrocket, drop me a PM with your email address. I believe there are incentive programs for new members.

 

[nnuut]

I agree that Sunrocket is a good choice. I've had it for 5 months, good service at a good price. Had little glitches at first, poor quality comunications, but has been great for the last 3 months. They have been upgrading their service lately.
Norman

 

[Griffin]

The learning curve on this one has been steep.....here's an update on to what I have found.

Telecommunications used to be so easy; TV: satellite, cable, antennae...easy; Phone: 2-4 choices, easy; Internet dial-up, cable modem, dsl....easy.

Now with all the bundling of packages and the introduction of VOIP, it makes it very confusing to come up with the right combination that is both cost effective and serves the purpose. I have concluded that VOIP is going to be more difficult to deal with then analog but is much cheaper, there is definitely a trade off if you are dealing with "systems" in your house that are dependant upon your phone (example - monitored security systems, and satellite boxes which use the phone for pay-per view).

Here are the options I explored:

Cable - (I was dealing with Comcast) - They have the "triple play" which is all three for $100.00 a month, until you add on $9 per box, and another $12 a month if you want a DVR/High Def and another $30 a month for premium channels/ an expanded list. For me, that was pushing $169 a month - which gets you VOIP phone unlimited long distance, 3 boxes with one box of digital high def cable w/DVR, and cable modem speeds (2-4 Mbps).

Cavalier Telephone/Satellite Package - This would be unlimited long distance Analog phone, DSL (expected 1.5Mbps) for $55 a month plus satallite for about $75.00 month. Total about $130.00 a month with my existing satellite system (4 boxes through Dishnetwork which includes a DVR and a High Def box which I purchased - each TV is equivalent to full gold/premium digital cable packages).

A combination of seperate DSL providers (approximately $30 a month - (<1Mbps speed), VOIP Phone (example - Sunrocket $20 a month), and my existing satellite which comes out to about $125.00 a month.

Finally - the package I decided to go with: Fiber Optic/VOIP through Verizon with my existing Satellite provider. The Fiber Optic (FIOS) is about $40 a month plus $25 for the VOIP (I could have used any VOIP provider and I had to order the services seperately, but I decided to stick with Verizon so they would be forced to sort out any compatability issues). With the Satellite, I am looking at about $140.00 a month but the Fiber Optic is supposedly faster and cleaner then cable with a steady 5Mbps speed. The thing about this set up is that it is set up to use a single expandable cordless phone with one base. I'm not real thrilled about this because I'm not a fan of wireless anything (for security reasons). However, I will be setting up a hard line internal network eventually (can use your help on this one 350z or whoever has experience) but the system comes with a wireless home network package.

I concluded that: the Cable system is expensive but has the convienience of single billing, the various combination of DSL providers and VOIP services was the least expensive, but you end up with limited DSL speed which is going to effect the quality of your telephone service (a serious issue for my chatterbox wife). Ultimately, I made my decision to go with the Fiber Optic because I seriously see it as the wave of the future, eventually antiquating everything else.

If your contemplating a similar decision, I hope this helps.

 

[350zCommTech]

Finally - the package I decided to go with: Fiber Optic/VOIP through Verizon with my existing Satellite provider. The Fiber Optic (FIOS) is about $40 a month plus $25 for the VOIP (I could have used any VOIP provider and I had to order the services seperately, but I decided to stick with Verizon so they would be forced to sort out any compatability issues). With the Satellite, I am looking at about $140.00 a month but the Fiber Optic is supposedly faster and cleaner then cable with a steady 5Mbps speed. The thing about this set up is that it is set up to use a single expandable cordless phone with one base. I'm not real thrilled about this because I'm not a fan of wireless anything (for security reasons). However, I will be setting up a hard line internal network eventually (can use your help on this one 350z or whoever has experience) but the system comes with a wireless home network package.

Griffin,

You made a excellent choice. If I had the option to get FIOS, I would have done the same. As for Verizon's VOIP cordless phone system, is it all in one box? There should be a J11(telephone output jack) on the VOIP box. The output should be bridged in with the rest of your 4-wire telephone portion of the your 8-wire CAT5s, in the basement. This will allow you to use your existing phones anywhere in the house that has a telephone jack.

As for their wireless home network package, it's not a problem. I'm guessing they gave you a modem with a built-in wireless router? You can either disable the wireless router part completely or use encryption keys and MAC address filtering for security. Both are easy to do. Their modem/router should have atleast one J45 CAT5 that you can hookup to a computer, proxy server, gateway, a switch, etc...

 

[Griffin]

350Z,

It's good to hear your approval, that definitely helps my confidence that I made the right choice. The installers are set to come next week to install the fiber optic line, modem and router. I have not recieved the VOIP system either so I can't give you a definite answer.

Let's assume the VOIP system has a J11 port (I would think it must since the wireless system would have to hook into it), when I suggested putting a hard line system into the VOIP system, the Verizon operator indicated that would create problems due to fragmenting the signal. I thought that was kind of odd, because I don't see that much of a difference between a signal coming out of an expandable wireless base unit and a hardwired network of phone lines. Would all the extra wire create that much distortion?

I definitely need a solution to the hardwire dilemma because of my security system and satellite boxes.

Is there any advantage to using cat5 line for the phone runs? Rather then running cat5 for the phones, I could just use standard 4 wire (is that cat3?) line for those runs and tie it into the existing system. I could then tie all that to a single standard phone plug by running a line from where exterior phone box is currently back inside the house to the VOIP modem. Would that work?

At my work we use Cat5 lines for data and phone and I was using our IT system as a template for building this system, maybe that is overkill and I only need one Cat5 port for the data network.

By the way, how was your trip?

 

[350zCommTech]

Let's assume the VOIP system has a J11 port (I would think it must since the wireless system would have to hook into it), when I suggested putting a hard line system into the VOIP system, the Verizon operator indicated that would create problems due to fragmenting the signal. I thought that was kind of odd, because I don't see that much of a difference between a signal coming out of an expandable wireless base unit and a hardwired network of phone lines. Would all the extra wire create that much distortion?

No, he doesn't know what he's talking about. You're only going to be using one phone at any one time anyway. In fact, I've used two phones at the same time before, while handing off calls, and I didn't notice any problems.

Is there any advantage to using cat5 line for the phone runs?

Since you are running new wires to each room, you want to run Cat5. As I mentioned in a the past, 1 Cat5 can support both telephone and Lan. 4 wires for telephone and the remaining 4 wires for 100mb Lan. You'll then use dual outlet, phone/Cat5, wall plates. But for Gigabit Lan, you'll need a separate Cat5 because Gigabit Lan uses all 8 wires.

Rather then running cat5 for the phones, I could just use standard 4 wire (is that cat3?) line for those runs and tie it into the existing system. I could then tie all that to a single standard phone plug by running a line from where exterior phone box is currently back inside the house to the VOIP modem. Would that work?

Yes, that would work. You can save some time and money by using the existing telephone wiring. But keep in mind that if you're going to use the exterior phone box, you will essentially be sending the signal from the VOIP outside and then back in to the house to be connected to the existing wiring. This is not really a big deal since the signal from the VOIP will have to go into your security system first and the output(or input) of it gets connected to the exterior box, which is then connected to the existing wiring. But then again, the first thing the bad guys will do is cut that wire in the exterior box.

At my work we use Cat5 lines for data and phone and I was using our IT system as a template for building this system, maybe that is overkill and I only need one Cat5 port for the data network.

If you haven't already, I would suggest you visit Home Depot and take a look at their home infrastructure/network boxes. They have just about everything you need. The punch down blocks for telephone and Cat5 will make you job easier.

By the way, how was your trip?

I'm actually still in OKC. It seems like there's a tornado with every storm and the streets get flooded when ever it rains. I've only been able to play golf twice but it was enjoyable both times. Other than that, I can't wait to get back home.

 

[Paul]

I just wired our place before I put up sheetrock and went ahead and ran
CAT6 cable everywhere. You never know what's going to happen in the
future and running wire now is easier and cheaper than doing it later.
Don't forget to wire for outside security, future appliances, thermostats, etc.
Check out Monoprice.com for cables.

 

[Griffin]

350Z,

Thanks again. That is a part of the country I don't get to. I was stationed in Fort Leonard Wood MO, all the locals had tornado stories and the local news covered the tornado events through Kansas and Oklahoma. I vaguely recall being very suprised by the frequency of them. Fort Lost-In-The-Woods had a nice golf course or so it appeared when we were circling it for the third time on our morning runs...never actually got to play it. I was happy to leave when my time came, but I have always found that you can have fun anywhere, if you got a good crew. I hope your trip gets better.

I will run cat5e for the phone lines and abandon what I can and run cat 6 (thanks Paul) for the network. I think I can get to the phone lines before they get out of the house (I'll probably leave what's left of the exterior phone in place as a decoy).

I guess the next step is to pick up a server. You mentioned that you are using a windows 2000 advance server. Is that "advance server" software running off a windows 2000 platform, or is it a seperate operating system?

 

[350zCommTech]

I guess the next step is to pick up a server. You mentioned that you are using a windows 2000 advance server. Is that "advance server" software running off a windows 2000 platform, or is it a seperate operating system?

The Windows 2000 "advance server" is the operating system. It has many built-in server programs such as DNS and DHCP. You don't need a lot of horse power for this, unless you're planning on running a game server or web server. I'm currently running it on a P3 733mhz with 1 GB of ram. You'll probably want expansion capability for lots of harddrives and most motherboards now include support for RAID.

If you want to run a network like mine, you'll also need a Linux server to run the proxy server program and firewall program. I would recommend atleast a 1.2Ghz(with 1 GB ram) machine. Most computers today are overkills for most home network servers. Do you have a Fry's electronic in your area?

I hope you weren't thinking about going to the store and buying a "server". That's going to cost you a lot of money.

 

[Griffin]

I realized I needed to get smarter about this whole process so I did a little research (I worked all weekend again so let me stress "little").

I need to compare the cost/benefits of a client/server network to a peer-to-peer network using Windows XP home (which I already own).

It seems to me, I would be looking at close to $1000 for a windows server license and a desktop to run it on. Does that sound right? I could use a keyboard port selector to save on the monitor/peripherals.

Alternatively, I could go with a peer to peer (P2P) system with windows XP. I would loose security going that route, but by using the administrator/user accounts available on XP, wouldn't I be able to set my internet security levels to max for a non-password protected general purpose account. From what I have gathered, you can share printers and scanners on a P2P network.

This is probably a ridiculous question but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask (I hope) What do I really gain by using a client/server network over a P2P system?

 

[350zCommTech]

It seems to me, I would be looking at close to $1000 for a windows server license and a desktop to run it on. Does that sound right? I could use a keyboard port selector to save on the monitor/peripherals.

Alternatively, I could go with a peer to peer (P2P) system with windows XP. I would loose security going that route, but by using the administrator/user accounts available on XP, wouldn't I be able to set my internet security levels to max for a non-password protected general purpose account. From what I have gathered, you can share printers and scanners on a P2P network.

This is probably a ridiculous question but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask (I hope) What do I really gain by using a client/server network over a P2P system?

The biggest gain is centralized security management and flexibility. It pays off when you start adding on to the newtork with more PCs, HTPC, network printers, etc... P2P is fine with 2-3 PCs. A good example is when you want to play DVD files that are stored on the other computer. That other computer might experience a slow down while the files are being accessed.

If you want to really save money or just don't feel like giving it to Bill Gates, then I would suggest you start with a Linux server. A linux server can do just about any thing A windows server can do, but it will do it for much cheaper or free. Most Linux programs are open source and are free. A linux server can run DHCP, File server, Proxy Server, Firewall, and many more. You can buy or build a 2GHZ machine for $300-400. Net install a server version of Linux such as Debian. Then download and install what ever you want to run, for free.

I should warn you that building a Linux server is not going to be easy. Actually, none of this is easy. But hey, that's part of the fun, right? I chose to run Domain and File Server on the Windows server because at the time I had no knowledge of Linux. It was just much easier to run those on the Windows server and it might still be. In fact, I had planned on building another Linux server that will run everything, but this setup has been working great for me for over two years now, so I'm not too crazy about changing it.

I would suggest that you start with a Linux server running DHCP and Proxy server. This will get you up and running quickly with the ability to block web sites. You can add firewall later. To save on cause, just use a dedicated Windows XP machine for a centralized file storage.

Btw, the Linux server will need two lan ports.

 

[350zCommTech]

I need to compare the cost/benefits of a client/server network to a peer-to-peer network using Windows XP home (which I already own).

Hmmm...I just remembered that Microsoft crippled Windows XP home edition so that it can't join a domain. There's a hack that will allow it but the functionality will still be limited. Which means you don't need to run a Domain server, unless your clients use Windows 2000/XP Pro or greater.

So, the suggestion in my previous post might be the best and cheapest option for you.

 

[Griffin]

It's time for an update -

The space is now finally built and all the hardwiring for the home network is in. I am currently running on a wireless router and verizon's FIOS, I have yet to go to a server.

The update is concerning verizon - first, the FIOS is excellent. second - their voicewing VOIP service absolutely sucks. I have had compatability problems with both my pay-per-view requests and my home alarm system. If the power goes out and I am disconnected for a period of a few hours (long enough for the battery backup to fail) - voicewing shuts off the service and you have to log on to intranet to get it rebooted. I went on vacation and the house lost power, the phone service shut down - so if I had a fire or burglary, my alarm was useless. The customer service center is also unbelieveable useless. I requested a port of my old phone number 5 times and they were not able to do it - so I paid for two telephone systems for 4 months. The icing on the cake was that through all of this (probably 2 dozen calls to customer service in all) everytime there service says "we are experiencing unusual call volume, please wait....." - never once did it say anything else - which basically means the whole operation is understaffed and being run on the cheap.

I also see that sunrocket went belly-up and vonage's problems are well known. My recommendation to anyone considering VOIP at this time - unless the only thing you want is a cheap second line with unlimited long distance, stay away. It doesn't cut it as the sole house phone system.

I am heading towards a setting up a windows server (I have an "in") more to follow.