Gay - Ready to SERVE

JTH said:
Hey buddy, how about not taking my quotes and splicing them up to meet your needs? And while you're at it, get back on the same planet, I could care less about your "I am women hear me roar" stick. The military you were apart was way less tolerant than the miltary we have today. The fact is you don't need to proclaim your sexuality to join today's military, we have many gay folks proudly serving today.

As for genetic defect, I'm refering to medical studies as I'm in the camp this is the way someone was born and it's not a choice. If everyone was gay, nobody would procreate, therefore we'd be extinct. If anyone is offended by the term "genetic defect" I'll kindly remind them that we have some sort of defect within us. :rolleyes:
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Oh dear friend,
I am not trying to take your quotes to splice them up to 'meet my needs'.

If I have any 'need' it is only - one of 'better understanding' and one by which I can love you and accept you - even if we do have different views on some aspects of life.

My reference to 'women' - or to any other 'people' who were (or are) regarded as 'unworthy' ...and who by nature of their 'gender' or 'race' or 'nationality' were forced to live in an environment that was hostile and demeaning - rejecting - negative ....that none of them 'deserved' to have lived through all those abuses.

The military I was in would NEVER have even remotely considered the possibility of a 'woman' being able to be what it takes to be a combat soldier.

I can't help how others think - or the mentality of an 'organization' ... and I'm not trying to be offensive to you ...

...I would simply ask every person to think for themselves and to strive to avoid the deeply ingrain 'prejudisms' that keep us intollerant - or make us display and fuel a Negative environment.

Well - I'm sorry for not giving you the 'credit' you deserve. I think what threw me off was your description as a 'Defect' - maybe the reference to calling them 'queer'.

I did NOT come to believe it was 'natural' - or 'genetic' until very recently. If you honestly believe this --- I mean really --- then how could you hold this against them?

I'm not trying to push anything down your throat - JTH - I'm simply trying to see what 'bridges' we could form -- so there is an appreciation and acceptance between 'us' - even if our views and beliefs on some things are different.

Frixxxx said:
The debate is not hard, modern day policy and mind set WILL cause homosexuality not to be a condition of service. However, there are many "moral" articles of the UCMJ that need to be addressed before you can radically open the doors. I knew homosexuals in the Air Force without incident. But sexual criminals are homo- AND hetero-, but their numbers are small when talking about who is looking at who in the shower.

Fix the articles in the UCMJ, address the "extremes" of human rights aka look at all the members of "GLAD" and really do some soul-searching about the admissions of viable candidates. Trans-genders really confuse me simply for the fact I personally can't wrap my head around it totally, even though I know the condition exists. Homosexuals: Been there done that, let them grab a weapon and stand a post.

Once the governing laws are changed, then they should be able to serve with the same dignity and honor as any true warrior. Betray that, and they're just a $hitty excuse for person.
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Frixxxxx,
My brother and friend -- this is way more in line with everything I was hoping we could acknowledge and understand.

In the exact same manner - this is my 'Political View' - the laws and policies that have been in place and increasingly 'inforced' are the very things that need to be 'Changed' for Change to happen.

Thank you !
 
Frixxxx said:
The debate is not hard, modern day policy and mind set WILL cause homosexuality not to be a condition of service. However, there are many "moral" articles of the UCMJ that need to be addressed before you can radically open the doors. I knew homosexuals in the Air Force without incident. But sexual criminals are homo- AND hetero-, but their numbers are small when talking about who is looking at who in the shower.

Fix the articles in the UCMJ, address the "extremes" of human rights aka look at all the members of "GLAD" and really do some soul-searching about the admissions of viable candidates. Trans-genders really confuse me simply for the fact I personally can't wrap my head around it totally, even though I know the condition exists. Homosexuals: Been there done that, let them grab a weapon and stand a post.

Once the governing laws are changed, then they should be able to serve with the same dignity and honor as any true warrior. Betray that, and they're just a $hitty excuse for person.
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Good stuff.

Agreed, and it's also going to push forward the gay marriage agenda as current heterosexuals have spouses with medical benefits, but will those benefits be extended to gays? It's a huge can of worms and will take some time to resolve. And like you said, what will we do with transsexuals? If military Joe wants to become military Jane will the tax payers be on the hook?
 
The debate is not hard, modern day policy and mind set WILL cause homosexuality not to be a condition of service. However, there are many "moral" articles of the UCMJ that need to be addressed before you can radically open the doors. I knew homosexuals in the Air Force without incident. But sexual criminals are homo- AND hetero-, but their numbers are small when talking about who is looking at who in the shower.

Fix the articles in the UCMJ, address the "extremes" of human rights aka look at all the members of "GLAD" and really do some soul-searching about the admissions of viable candidates. Trans-genders really confuse me simply for the fact I personally can't wrap my head around it totally, even though I know the condition exists. Homosexuals: Been there done that, let them grab a weapon and stand a post.

Once the governing laws are changed, then they should be able to serve with the same dignity and honor as any true warrior. Betray that, and they're just a $hitty excuse for person.
 
Hey buddy, how about not taking my quotes and splicing them up to meet your needs? And while you're at it, get back on the same planet, I could care less about your "I am women hear me roar" stick. The military you were apart was way less tolerant than the miltary we have today. The fact is you don't need to proclaim your sexuality to join today's military, we have many gay folks proudly serving today.

As for genetic defect, I'm refering to medical studies as I'm in the camp this is the way someone was born and it's not a choice. If everyone was gay, nobody would procreate, therefore we'd be extinct. If anyone is offended by the term "genetic defect" I'll kindly remind them that we have some sort of defect within us. :rolleyes:
 
Steel_Magnolia said:
A recent opinion piece in my regional newspaper (The Salt Lake Tribune) said that "Gay Rights" is going to be "The Civil Rights Movement" of this century.
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I don't understand it Maggie. It's probably the timing of my birth and the impact MLK Jr. directly had on me when I had to 'Consider his message and seriously give weight to what he shared'.

Women - throughout the centuries and in many cultures were also essentially counted for nothing.

It just seems like TODAY - everyone should know better because we honestly don't have an excuse for being so 'narrow minded' and refusing to loosen up on (and do away with) beliefs that more deeply seep us in prejudism - hatred - intollerance - and 'condenscending attitudes' that wholly stem from the most garbage belief of all....

...that a random sperm and egg ... makes me better because I'm white, or because I was born in America. Had I been born in any other Nation then I'd be a piece of crap. I mean none of it - holds any water.

Women have proved they are every bit as good as men; Blacks have proven they are just as human (and deserving); as have the Chinese and Native Americans ... and everyone else our LAWS 'crushed' in one way or another.

Our origins are the same - everyone of us is 'human' and we all live on the same planet and none of us 'choose' our parents - we are 100% equal in the greatest possible ways.

It's only since joining this Site - my own 'stupid' beliefs were challenged enough to see 'HOW WRONG I WAS' ...

...and that was by discovering the Native American 'culture' and deeply realizing how incredibly 'beautiful they were and are' in so many ways - that we could have learned from if we'd only taken the time to allow 'them' to change us.

Somehow society has a very hard time acknowledgeing the huge 'ignorance they display' - and all the more the extreme measures they hurt society - by NOT allowing women, blacks, gays -- whatever to have the freedom to be acknowledged and make the most out of life they can.

Afishegg said:
To me it don't matter, the bible says it is WRONG! It's not a grey area, it is black and white. 1 cor 6:9,10 is clear on the subject. The fact that the bible says "god is love" does NOT mean he condones immorality, wrong is wrong. (my opinion only)
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My friend - the bible is wholly grounded in the GRACE of GOD through Jesus Christ. If the 'message' of God and all His GRACE represents is honestly a concern - then your most important 'role' is learning to extend His GRACE - 'unconditionally' - totally with earnest desire to make His Glory known.

We don't extend His Glory by pretending others don't deserve it. We hide God's LOVE in our narrow mindedness.

I can LOVE and ACCEPT 'the GAY' without promoting a specific act; but if I promote the millions of 'acts' and 'thoughts' that are 'totally acceptable' then I am NOT going againt GOD. I can LOVE and ACCEPT many others who may have 'sinful habits' -- in the exact same manner.

The TRUTH is -- everyone of us has traits and characteristics that make everyone one of 'us' - UNWORTHY. You and me - included.

Birchtree said:
In Vietnam the South Korean soldiers...
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Birch, it breaks my heart too much to show you everything ...

I know why you went and what you believed... I know why I went (wherever I went) - and what I believed...

Afishegg said:
I understand, and no offense to you, I'm just sayin, man says this and that, according to man things/society's "change" but according to god they don't. I believe there is a passage that says the plans of man are many, but the ways of Jehovah will last forever....;)
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According to GOD - everything changes when we deeply come to know HIS GRACE and allow that to 'transform us' to make His Glory known.

JTH said:
Being gay is a genetic defect. But please just don't act like a queer on the job. I need real men and women working with me, and I don't need a Hollywood drama queen. Just because your gay doesn't mean you can't act like a man or a women.
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What is the 'genetic defect' that causes some to be fully convinced that Blacks are animals or less - that women could not possible find anything in life beyond motherhood and being a teacher - that essentially anyone we decide is not 'one of us' can be banned - beaten - ridiculed - ignored.

What is the 'genetic defect' that let them (whoever they are) be tollerant and accepting of 'us' - when we are intollerant and wholly 'rejecting'. Which 'defect' is better -- one that promotes harmony and understanding or one that reinforces 'hate' and division.

I am NOT saying Gays should have seperate facilities (or that they would even require them). It's not one 'specific characteristic' everyone is so honed in on - that is all they see - that I'm remotely reflecting on. I also would NOT have a problem with women and men sharing facilities.

The problem is NOT the 'women' or the 'gay' - the problem IS the ones who find it 'impossible' to give them the dignity and respect they deserve. Who harrass them in every way imaginable -- because they are 'women' or because they are 'gay' --
 
J, you bring up a very real problem, my friend. I remember once when I was in a conference with a transgendered woman, during the breaks she would use the restroom on that same floor and the other women would use the restroom one floor up. That may have been because it was easy to tell that she still had a sexual preference for women ....

Be that as it may, I have a feeling that in today's world there is a very real possibility that the issue of gays in the military may become a reality. So let's have a serious discussion about this. There are a lot of smart brains on this MB. So does anyone have a serious suggestion about how to deal with any or all of the problems that could be created if "don't ask, don't tell" is done away with?
 
Being gay is a genetic defect and the military can exclude those with sickle cell anemia, asthma, diabetics, those in wheel chairs ect. It's just a fact of life the military is the only organization that can legally discriminate.

Setting that aside, women require a certain amount of privacy from men. The question then becomes do men deserve a certain amount of privacy from men who are attracted to men?

When deployed, we have to room together and often the shower rooms are just one big room. It's hardly feasible to have separate women rooms & bathrooms and it's just not feasible to have separate gay rooms. Yet many will see this gay issue as a violation of what little privacy & dignity we already have.

As for my own opinion, you could be gay all you want, go ahead and poke the brown starfish to your hearts delight. But please just don't act like a queer on the job. I need real men and women working with me, and I don't need a Hollywood drama queen. Just because your gay doesn't mean you can't act like a man or a women.
 
James48843 said:
First of all, I have NEVER heard of someone missing the point of 1st Corinthians as much as that. Never. 1st Corinthians encourages people to take care of their bodies as a holy temple for God. Far, far different thing. I suppose under your interpretation then, that anyone who does any of these ought to be banned from Military service?



That's going to leave a darn small army when all is said and done, don't you think?


If you want to join an exclusively Christian Army, I am afraid you're a little late. The crusades were a long, long time ago. The U.S. Army of today isn't a Christian Army.
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No, your right. I was applying scripture to the wrong debate. I guess I got carried away and just decided to put it out that, I am fundamentally opposed to it, when the argument was; should they be let in to todays army? To that question I say yes. . . . . . Anyhoo......:embarrest::D
 
Birchtree said:
I think that soap was called "English Leather", right?
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damned if I know
dontknow.gif
...curious though how you might surmise that..:suspicious::D
 
Afishegg said:
To me it don't matter, the bible says it is WRONG! It's not a grey area, it is black and white. 1 cor 6:9,10 is clear on the subject. The fact that the bible says "god is love" does NOT mean he condones immorality, wrong is wrong. (my opinion only)
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First of all, I have NEVER heard of someone missing the point of 1st Corinthians as much as that. Never. 1st Corinthians encourages people to take care of their bodies as a holy temple for God. Far, far different thing. I suppose under your interpretation then, that anyone who does any of these ought to be banned from Military service?

Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
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That's going to leave a darn small army when all is said and done, don't you think?


If you want to join an exclusively Christian Army, I am afraid you're a little late. The crusades were a long, long time ago. The U.S. Army of today isn't a Christian Army.
 
Birchtree said:
In Vietnam the South Korean soldiers would often hold hands - I was always glad the ROKs were on my side. They would even make Charlie shake with fear. They were known as mutilators - taking an ear etc - so the Cong could not reach their promised land unless they had all their parts.
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Certain cultures (in africa) require men to hold hands as a sign of friendship, this is not a homosexual act at all, and when in rome. I know people who have had to adopt and hold hands with another man, but not in a homosexual manner but a friendship manner. Remember the picture of G W bush holding the hand of king abdullah?
 
Steel_Magnolia said:
You have the right to your beliefs, afishegg, just as everyone else does. All I'm saying is what was the opinion of my region's newspaper. I'm not going to argue religion with anyone. That's more of a no-win than politics. Everybody thinks that there is their beliefs and then there's the wrong ones.
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I understand, and no offense to you, I'm just sayin, man says this and that, according to man things/society's "change" but according to god they don't. I believe there is a passage that says the plans of man are many, but the ways of Jehovah will last forever....;)
 
In Vietnam the South Korean soldiers would often hold hands - I was always glad the ROKs were on my side. They would even make Charlie shake with fear. They were known as mutilators - taking an ear etc - so the Cong could not reach their promised land unless they had all their parts.
 
You have the right to your beliefs, afishegg, just as everyone else does. All I'm saying is what was the opinion of my region's newspaper. I'm not going to argue religion with anyone. That's more of a no-win than politics. Everybody thinks that there is their beliefs and then there's the wrong ones.
 
Steel_Magnolia said:
A recent opinion piece in my regional newspaper (The Salt Lake Tribune) said that "Gay Rights" is going to be "The Civil Rights Movement" of this century.
Click to expand...
To me it don't matter, the bible says it is WRONG! It's not a grey area, it is black and white. 1 cor 6:9,10 is clear on the subject. The fact that the bible says "god is love" does NOT mean he condones immorality, wrong is wrong. (my opinion only)
 
A recent opinion piece in my regional newspaper (The Salt Lake Tribune) said that "Gay Rights" is going to be "The Civil Rights Movement" of this century.
 
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