2 IFT maximum - 19 November proposition

Re: Griffin Account Talk

The L-funds are fixed percentages of the five main funds, I don't think there is an expense with those prices. I more inclined to believe a huge chunk of the additional costs are associated with the I-fund's Fair Valuations. If that's the case they should place the limit there.

The problem with there costs, is that they either blame it on additional IT requirements (in which case the infrastructure is already there, now - and replacement costs are minimal, with IT the big cost is in setting the system up initially) or they blame it on salary/personnel costs, so how much of their staff are they going to be able to fire if they make this adjustment?

What's it going to cost them in 2007now that the infrastructure is in place? and if they implement this system are they going to report the cost savings for 2008 and 2009?

Transfer fees - ok - Scotttrade 7$ a trade.
True, the L Funds are composed of fixed percentages of the base TSP funds, but they do "rebalance" every day. Doesn't this effectively mean making transfers at the end of every day for each account in order to maintain the constant fund percentages in each account?
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

True, the L Funds are composed of fixed percentages of the base TSP funds, but they do "rebalance" every day. Doesn't this effectively mean making transfers at the end of every day for each account in order to maintain the constant fund percentages in each account?

I think I get what your saying but I'll have to look at that tonight.

For now, I am still debating to IFT - but I believe if I was in, I would be pulling out. Once again, it's the afternoon crowd that is going to decide where things go - there is significant resistance at 1450 and 1460. Inless I change my mind in the next twenty minutes, I'm staying out - this is an oversold bounce and we have an un-retested low to contend with.
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

True, the L Funds are composed of fixed percentages of the base TSP funds, but they do "rebalance" every day. Doesn't this effectively mean making transfers at the end of every day for each account in order to maintain the constant fund percentages in each account?

That's just what I was going to say. In the Thrift Investment Board's September Meeting minutes, they included an attachment about the costs associated with each fund. They always include this attachment. The year to date costs for G, F, C, S, I, and each of the L Funds were each listed as .01%. So, it looks to me that it costs just as much to maintain the L Funds as it does to trade the G,F,C,S,I Funds.
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

I think I get what your saying but I'll have to look at that tonight.

For now, I am still debating to IFT - but I believe if I was in, I would be pulling out. Once again, it's the afternoon crowd that is going to decide where things go - there is significant resistance at 1450 and 1460. Inless I change my mind in the next twenty minutes, I'm staying out - this is an oversold bounce and we have an un-retested low to contend with.

I am in for today only at 50% stocks/50% G fund, but will be going to 100% G for tomorrow.
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

This is certainly not want anyone wants to hear but I can guarantee you if they really wanted to play fair, and by that I mean the way Merril Lynch and all the other accounts I have traded in - they would charge everyone one of us a percentage on our transfers everytime we trade. For those of us who frequently trade at 100% - all the more they would rake in the bucks. Legally, I have always wondered how I can make daily transfers (usually obtaining very nice gains) and never have to pay a penny for doing it.


It's kind of funny I paid Ebb for a full year, but what I got in 8/07 alone was more than worth the token he received. Somehow I can't help but think at this ruckus will blow over - just like Ebb's service. I think we might be better off accepting the changes and trying to adjust accordingly.
 
The following excerpts are drawn from the FRTIB meeting minutes and I think they shed light on what the FRTIB is thinking and their motivation behind setting the maximum.

I didn't include the text that reveals that the TSP purchases the I-fund share the next morning AFTER they do the FV. The expectation is that by applying the FV correctly, they priced the fund for the actual cost they are going to pay the following day, and if they mess it up - the participants pay the price.

Here's a link to the full text:

http://www.frtib.gov/FOIA/minutes-board-member-meetings_2007Aug.pdf

http://www.frtib.gov/FOIA/minutes-board-member-meetings_2007Sep.pdf

Compare what they said in August in pink to what they said in September in pink and then do the same for the blue sentances. Finally check out what they said in red.

FRTIB Minutes August 20

She noted that the tracking error for the I Fund was 89 basis points because it was fair valued on July 31st. The year-to-date tracking error for the small-mid cap fund was 18 basis points due to the fund's sampling technique. The I Fund is only down 77 basis points year-to-date rather than 89 basis points due to the Fund's tax benefits.

Year-to-date trading costs for the I Fund are only $3 million compared to $13 million for all of last year. Last Thursday, $730 million was transferred out of the I Fund. The overseas markets opened down on Friday and the trades were executed at these lower prices. Consequently, transaction costs for that one day were $9.5 million. We also had $307 million in transfers out of the S Fund and $404 million out of the C Fund. This compares to March 5th, our biggest day of interfund activity, where we had a $862 million transferred out of the I Fund, $421 million out of the S Fund, and $440 million out of the C-Fund.

FRTIB Minutes September 17

In August, $3.2 billion was traded in the I Fund which is second only to March, when $3.4 billion was traded. For the year, $14 billion has been traded in the I Fund, which is a 50 percent increase over the amount traded in the same period last year. The trading cost associated with the I Fund in August were 33 basis points, which resulted in $10.5 million being charged to plan participants.

August was the first month of interfund transfer activity out of the L funds: $36 million was transferred out of the 2040 Fund, and $17 million was transferred out of the 2020 Fund. On the other hand, $5 million was transferred into the income fund. This reflects a pattern similar to the other funds. That is, when the markets are turbulent, participants switch from equity funds to income funds. With the L funds, participants switch from the most aggressive L Funds to the most conservative L Funds. Chairman Saul remarked that this was important because it shows that this is a plan of individual choice. Our role is to educate the participants but not to advise them. The participants must make the decisions they are comfortable with. Chairman Saul then asked about fund performance during the month of September.

If I am not mistaken, what they are saying is that the costs to the participants that they are using to justify the two IFT transfer - are NOT fees applied by Barclay's but ARE the costs to participants for those that IFT on a day when TSP messes up their FV guesstimation process. So if they screw up the FV - it's not a big deal if no one transferred, but because these big FV's occur on critical volatile days, if they help those that moved out, then it hurt those that stayed in. That's why the want to limit us on our IFTs. However, as you can see from their own text, the big costs come on these critical days so limiting us to two IFTs is probably going to have little effect on their problem.

Let me know if you think I have this is right - because I thought the 15 million they were referring to in their statement was a fee being leveled by Barclay. If I have this wrong, I want to know.
 
Last edited:
I sent a fairly plaigerized/eloquent letter to my Union Prez today. See where it ends up. AFGE if it matters...
 
I sent a fairly plaigerized/eloquent letter to my Union Prez today. See where it ends up. AFGE if it matters...

That's what it take. I sent one today too. Keep sending them until we find someone that will act.
 
I find two things interesting.

The first is the Chairman's statement in the last minutes: "Chairman Saul remarked that this was important because it shows that this is a plan of individual choice. Our role is to educate the participants but not to advise them. The participants must make the decisions they are comfortable with."

Seems to me this is basically PR for the minutes since we are no longer allowed to "make the decisions we are comfortable with" and, while we have (minimal) choices, we are getting much more than an education by this action on the part of the board!

The other thing that had me curious was that I read (somewhere) that the problems started in 2005 or 2006. The L-funds came online, I believe, in August, 2004. Is there a correllation?
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

True, the L Funds are composed of fixed percentages of the base TSP funds, but they do "rebalance" every day. Doesn't this effectively mean making transfers at the end of every day for each account in order to maintain the constant fund percentages in each account?

Hey Griffin,

Did you ever look at this further to see if I was correct in the way that TSP rebalances the accounts? Thanks.

Have a nice Thanksgiving! :)

Keith
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

I wonder what excuse they are going to have for the Fair Valuation now, if they will limit the number of IFTs....
 
TSP Talk was never intended to be a "watchdog" organization, but that does not mean we can't analyze this situation.

The press release indicated they were concerned about 3000 folks who are rebalancing daily. Given 20 trading days a month, a two (or four roundtrip) IFT limit essentially represents about 90% or 80% reduction, of these "problem children" ability to IFT. A 60% reduction (4 trades into stocks and unlimted trades to the G or 8 trades total limit) seems like a less dramatic solution.

The minutes clearly show that the board recognizes a need for the system to be mega crash proof (in the event of a catastrophic event - i.e. something happens in the world, like a September 11th, and everyone runs for the safety of the G). In order to achieve that capability, the daily IFTs are irrelevant. So the issue is not storage capacity or hardware.

The minutes indicate that the problem seems to stem from the FV process when it fails to accurately predict (using the FV) the buying price (the purchase from Barclay's is executed the next morning). By the admission of the minutes, this seems to occurr when volatility is at it's steepest - which is also what causes unusally large number of exchanges. So when the FV process is most likely to be inaccurate is also when the highest number of IFTs is likely to occurr - therefore, limiting the IFT's may have little to no impact on this problem. A uesful argument - which requries quite a bit of statistics to show - and if the board has done the math then good for them - but if they haven't done the math, then shame on them and they need to evaluate the effect their solution would really have before they implement this unproven policy.).

Another solution, they may have not considered, would be for TSP to postpone the pricing of funds until AFTER the I-fund shares were purchased from Barclay's the following morning - which means that TSP would not post the numbers until somewhere around 1100 EST. The upside of this though, may be that they could extend the deadline. Let's say they pushed it out to 1500EST. Would you rather have things work they way they are now or do it this way? IMHO - this is a much better solution - becasue we are all still going to be able to guess the closing prices just as we do now - except that we might be a couple pennies off, because of the onsies/twosies of large movements within the funds themselves influencing the price. Plus, we would not have to make decisions about our IFT until after noon - does it really matter to the timer, if they don't get the actual numbers until the next morning? That's rhetorical - the answer is No.

I would appreciate y'all's thoughts.
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

Hey Griffin,

Did you ever look at this further to see if I was correct in the way that TSP rebalances the accounts? Thanks.

Have a nice Thanksgiving! :)

Keith

I had not read Tom's comments at the time that we had that discussion. I trust Tom implicitly so I believe that this is accurate. However, I don't think that this has anything to do with fees associated with the transfer of funds by Barclays, Leahmans or any other organization.

Agree or disagree? Your thoughts and insight are greatly apprreciated. I really want to get to the bottom of this.
 
Between "hey Joe" and the call for a class action law suit - I will say this. The Fed Board functions as a government entity, which means that it is subject to a section 1983 which basically says it's illegal to deny someone of a constitutionally mandated freedom (i.e. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....the later being our primary concern). A class action civil rights law suit could be brought against the TSP board members - in which case, the goal would be for a $1 judgement (plus lawyer fees). $1 you say? yes....a confirmation that civil right were violated and therefore requiring a restructuring of the policy. It actually would be a fairly easy victory becasue TSP board has pretty much said that the purpose of the policy was to discriminate against the frequent traders. The key is which state do you go after them in. Probably Massachutes would be the best place to start.

Just a thought - any civil rights attorney's out there?
 
Griffin-

Your two posts on the page before are excellent posts, and need to be copied over to the TSP NEWS page that we have going.

Do you have edit rights on this page, to paste and copy?

Thanks

Jim
 
Telephone and FAX numbers for the main office of the Thrift Investment Board:

Tel: 202-942-1630
FAX: 202-942-1676

I highly suggest we light up the switchboard starting on Friday, and fill up the fax machine.

JUST SAY NO!
 
Re: Griffin Account Talk

I think maybe you should listen to some of your own music you adorn...



Thanks:

DING DING DING:
http://www.swingstateproject.com/sho...o?diaryId=1099
Quote:
NY-19: The gall! The unmitigated gall! How could a Democrat ever dare to represent Westchester! Why, such things just aren't done! Well, of course they are (after all, a Dem represents the 18th), but so said the NY GOP after 2006. So they set their sites on Rep. John Hall and rallied around uber-rich self-funder Andrew Saul. Only problem: After months of gangbusters fundraising, it turns out Saul's up to his ears in ethics violations - and now out of the race. A Republican engaging in corruption? Why, such things just aren't done!
I wonder how deep the issue runs through the TSP board and staff. Mr Saul may just be a token sacrifice to attempt to satisfy the hunger of die hard capitalists pigs. I for one like rooting aboot, a truffle may turn up.

The gain is a foot.
 
Back
Top