What Happened to CAP And Trade?

nnuut

Moderator | TSP Legend
OK BIG SPENDERS, what should happen to Cap and Trade? Will it help the environment, reduce pollution, and stimulate the economy or have little or no effect on Climate Change and air pollution, over TAX industry and Tax Payers while dragging the economy farther down into the Recession Hole?

Who Pays for Cap and Trade?

Hint: They were promised a tax cut during the Obama campaign.

Cap and trade is the tax that dare not speak its name, and Democrats are hoping in particular that no one notices who would pay for their climate ambitions. With President Obama depending on vast new carbon revenues in his budget and Congress promising a bill by May, perhaps Americans would like to know the deeply unequal ways that climate costs would be distributed across regions and income groups.

Politicians love cap and trade because they can claim to be taxing "polluters," not workers. Hardly. Once the government creates a scarce new commodity -- in this case the right to emit carbon -- and then mandates that businesses buy it, the costs would inevitably be passed on to all consumers in the form of higher prices. Stating the obvious, Peter Orszag -- now Mr. Obama's budget director -- told Congress last year that "Those price increases are essential to the success of a cap-and-trade program."
Hit hardest would be the "95% of working families" Mr. Obama keeps mentioning, usually omitting that his no-new-taxes pledge comes with the caveat "unless you use energy." Putting a price on carbon is regressive by definition because poor and middle-income households spend more of their paychecks on things like gas to drive to work, groceries or home heating.
The Congressional Budget Office -- Mr. Orszag's former roost -- estimates that the price hikes from a 15% cut in emissions would cost the average household in the bottom-income quintile about 3.3% of its after-tax income every year. That's about $680, not including the costs of reduced employment and output. The three middle quintiles would see their paychecks cut between $880 and $1,500, or 2.9% to 2.7% of income. The rich would pay 1.7%. Cap and trade is the ideal policy for every Beltway analyst who thinks the tax code is too progressive (all five of them).
But the greatest inequities are geographic and would be imposed on the parts of the U.S. that rely most on manufacturing or fossil fuels -- particularly coal, which generates most power in the Midwest, Southern and Plains states. It's no coincidence that the liberals most invested in cap and trade -- Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, Ed Markey -- come from California or the Northeast.
Coal provides more than half of U.S. electricity, and 25 states get more than 50% of their electricity from conventional coal-fired generation. In Ohio, it totals 86%, according to the Energy Information Administration. Ratepayers in Indiana (94%), Missouri (85%), New Mexico (80%), Pennsylvania (56%), West Virginia (98%) and Wyoming (95%) are going to get soaked.
Another way to think about it is in terms of per capita greenhouse-gas emissions. California is the No. 2 carbon emitter in the country but also has a large economy and population. So the average Californian only had a carbon footprint of about 12 tons of CO2-equivalent in 2005, according to the World Resource Institute's Climate Analysis Indicators, which integrates all government data. The situation is very different in Wyoming and North Dakota -- paging Senators Mike Enzi and Kent Conrad -- where every person was responsible for 154 and 95 tons, respectively. See the nearby chart for cap and trade's biggest state winners and losers.
ED-AJ130_3whopa_NS_20090308171239.gif


Democrats say they'll allow some of this ocean of new cap-and-trade revenue to trickle back down to the public. In his budget, Mr. Obama wants to recycle $525 billion through the "making work pay" tax credit that goes to many people who don't pay income taxes. But $400 for individuals and $800 for families still doesn't offset carbon's income raid, especially in states with higher carbon use.
All the more so because the Administration is lowballing its cap-and-trade tax estimates. Its stated goal is to reduce emissions 14% below 2005 levels by 2020, which assuming that four-fifths of emissions are covered (excluding agriculture, for instance), works out to about $13 or $14 per ton of CO2. When CBO scored a similar bill last year, it expected prices to start at $23 and rise to $44 by 2018. CBO also projected the total value of the allowances at $902 billion over the first decade, which is some $256 billion more than the Administration's estimate. [more]
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html
 
Panel Rejects French Carbon Tax The New York Times 2009-12-30

BRUSSELS - France's Constitutional Council has rejected a tax on carbon emissions strongly backed by President Nicolas Sarkozy that was to take effect Friday. But his ruling conservative party said the measure would be redrafted so it could be passed into law next year. The council ruled late Tuesday that the bill contained too many exemptions for polluters, broke with past practices and threatened to make tax collection unfair. The ruling is a blow to Mr. Sarkozy, who has sought to burnish his green credentials by holding international talks next year to seek agreement on emission cuts...
http://article.wn.com/view/2009/12/30/Panel_Rejects_French_Carbon_Tax/
 
Yep. The Council said it contained too many exemptions. Their system is a lot different from ours. They're interested in a fair tax system, with no exemptions.

Panel Rejects French Carbon Tax The New York Times 2009-12-30

BRUSSELS - France's Constitutional Council has rejected a tax on carbon emissions strongly backed by President Nicolas Sarkozy that was to take effect Friday. But his ruling conservative party said the measure would be redrafted so it could be passed into law next year. The council ruled late Tuesday that the bill contained too many exemptions for polluters, broke with past practices and threatened to make tax collection unfair. The ruling is a blow to Mr. Sarkozy, who has sought to burnish his green credentials by holding international talks next year to seek agreement on emission cuts...
http://article.wn.com/view/2009/12/30/Panel_Rejects_French_Carbon_Tax/
 
OK, everybody. I went on record somewhere here on the mb awhile back saying I had reservations about C&T (regardless of what I think about regional climate patterns that may or may not be part of a larger global pattern). I didn't remember why I had reservations about C&T at the time, but-

I suspect what gave me pause earlier was I had become aware of some of the problems mentioned here, just didn't recall the details, so declined to participate more in this discussion til now. Have fun all, there's more in the article at the link.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/12/leading-global-warming-crusader-cap-and.html

James Hansen - the world's leading climate scientist fighting against global warming - told Amy Goodman this morning that cap and trade not only won't reduce emissions, it may actually increase them:
The problem is that the emissions just go someplace else. That’s what happened after Kyoto, and that’s what would happen again, if—as long as fossil fuels are the cheapest energy, they will be burned someplace. You know, the Europeans thought they actually reduced their emissions after Kyoto, but what happened was the products that had been made in their countries began to be made in other countries, which were burning the cheapest form of fossil fuel, so the total emissions actually increased...
See also this and this.

Environmental groups such as Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace are also against cap and trade (and see this and this), as is the head of California's cap and trade program for the EPA.

Hansen also told Goodman that (notwithstanding Paul Krugman's assertions) most economists say that cap and trade won't work:
I’ve talked with many economists, and the majority of them agree that the cap and trade with offsets is not the way to address the problem.
As I have previously pointed out:
  • The economists who invented cap-and-trade say that it won't work for global warming
  • European criminal investigators have determined that there is a tremendous amount of fraud occurring in the carbon trading market. Indeed, organized crime has largely taken over the European cap and trade market.
  • Former U.S. Undersecretary of Commerce for Economic Affairs Robert Shapiro says that the proposed cap and trade law "has no provisions to prevent insider trading by utilities and energy companies or a financial meltdown from speculators trading frantically in the permits and their derivatives."
 
Yes Alevin there is MUCH wrong with this bill and when it comes down to it the basis of Cap and Trade is that CO2 needs to be regulated, which is just not true. Other gaseous emissions are much more harmful to the climate than CO2. Their mantra of reducing CO2 emissions is all part of the Global Warming fiasco which is just WRONG and surely based on False Science. It's about TAXES and Control of the World economy. History will prove that this attempt to change World Politics and economies was a farce with its own hidden agenda. We all want to stop pollution of our atmosphere, land and waters but let's do it the right way. :cool:
 
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To fix a problem (the role of policy), must first admit (the role of politics)there is a problem (based on credible data analysis of course). In South Africa, its taken a really long time for the government to acknowledge AIDS/HIV epidemic-despite the evidence in front of them, much less deal with it realistically in government policy responses-which has only allowed the problem to become even bigger and more costly to the country in the meantime. Just drawing a parallel. We need our leaders to realistically assess potential risk of unintended consequences, not just desired outcomes.
 
What happened to the CapnTrade thread?

It got buried for 4 months. : )

The current regime has to inflict as much damage
as possible between now and Nov. 2 they are toast.
 
This is all part of the plan to take control and generate funds, one step at a time. It's going as planned right now so you that are for this and Health care and the rest will have to live with it just like the LOGICAL citizens do. :cool:
 
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