A Study of Your Returns

Desperado

Member
A Perfect Display of Why Market Timing Doesn’t Work

A group of 48 Federal Employee Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) investors tracked their returns from Jan 1 2006 to Nov 24 2006 at TSPtalk.com. These investors changed their asset allocations on average 37.6 times over the 11 month study period, with the most frequent trader swapping 157 times, (impressive given the fact that the NYSE was only open 226 days.) As the TSP is a tax-deferred, no-fee plan these traders incurred NO transaction costs. Their investment options include 4 very low cost index funds which mimic the S&P 500, the Wilshire 4500, the EAFE, and the Lehman Bros Bond Index, and a special fund called the G fund, which essentially has the return of a medium-term government bond fund with the risk of a money market fund. There are also 5 “lifecycle” funds within the TSP program, but these are infrequently used by these investors. Transactions requested prior to noon Eastern time take place at the close of business that same day.

The individual fund returns for the study period were:
G Fund (Treasuries): 4.48%
F Fund (Lehman Bond): 4.50%
C Fund (S&P 500): 14.17%
S Fund (Wilshire 4500): 15.43%
I Fund (EAFE): 21.15%

The mean return for these investors was 11.64%. The median return was 11.97%. The best return was 22.16%. The worst return was -4.01. The standard deviation of returns was 5.45%.

Comparison against appropriate indexes would be appropriate:
Perhaps the best comparison for these relatively aggressive investors would be against an all-stock “Total Global Market” portfolio (50% I, 39% C, 11% S), which bested 92% of them. Even an all-stock buy-and-hold investor who feared foreign markets and invested only in the “Total US Stock Market” portfolio (78% C, 22% S) would have beaten 35% of investors. Only 52% (not statistically significantly different from ½) of investors topped a “know-nothing” portfolio of 20% in each of the 5 funds. Even the average lifecycle fund investor (who often held a large percentage of relatively low-performing fixed income) bested 46% of these traders.

But what about the “Warren Buffets” of the group. Surely there must be at least a few very talented traders in this group. In a random distribution, one would expect approximately 2.5% (or about 1 trader) to perform better than 2 standard deviations above the mean. In fact, no traders managed this feat, suggesting that the outperformance of their top performers was less likely to be due to skill than sheer luck. In fact, a distribution of monkeys throwing darts to choose their allocations would likely have produced a higher performer than these 48 investors. One would also expect 16.9% of investors to perform better than 1 standard deviation above the mean. In fact, only 14.5% of investors did so.

It is noteworthy that these investors were functioning in a “zero-sum” game, quite different from the typical investor, in that they pay no portfolio fees (aside from the miniscule ERs of the individual funds), no transaction costs, and no taxes on gains. If these traders had been operating in a typical investing environment, their transaction costs and taxes would have made their performance even more dismal.

The correlation coefficient between # of trades and return was 0.048, which means there was no significant benefit to trading more often.
 
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Oh boy, have we ever bumped by the way? You forgot the disciplined approach of a buy and holder using dollar cost averaging - it's my redeemer and does make a substantial contribution to performance.
 
Hey, at least the mean was pretty good. 11.64% for a year isn't too bad. You're making it look bad because you are comparing it to the other funds this year. There are many years to be invested. Some of them will be real bad. When we have a bear market, compare the returns of the market to the returns of TSP traders. You might still find a mean of 11 to 12% for the traders, but a -20% for the market.
 
This is a terrible comparison. I wonder how many professional mutual fund managers beat the S&P this year. It's very difficult to beat in a big up year. (Defined in my book as greater than the trailing 10 years avg) Fabijo, you got it right....let's compare over an entire cycle and I'll bet you find TSP Talkers do quite well.
 
This is a terrible comparison. I wonder how many professional mutual fund managers beat the S&P this year. It's very difficult to beat in a big up year. (Defined in my book as greater than the trailing 10 years avg) Fabijo, you got it right....let's compare over an entire cycle and I'll bet you find TSP Talkers do quite well.

Provide the data and I'll crunch the numbers.
 
Desperado,

As one of the not so glamoursly dubbed "warren buffets" of the group, I can tell you that I consistently slip behind a buy and hold strategy during the up cycles of the market.

However, a monkey throwing darts will not stay out of the market during major corrections. This is the rosetta stone of the whole timing process.

Since you like to crunch numbers, do me a favor. Calculate what a buy and hold strategy would have returned for each of the stock funds for the past ten complete years (1996-2005) given a starting amount of 100K and assuming no additional contributions, and then calculate what the return of a person who missed the top performing fund (i.e. underperformed the best performing of the funds) annually by 0%, 1%, 2%, 3% etc... until you have sufficiently bracketed the buy and hold strategies.

The majority of us on the board have the goal of meeting or beating the best performing fund each year. I recognize that is an ambitious goal and only a few of us will likely achieve it. My gut tells me achieveing that goal is probably not necessary to be beneficial. I would be extremely interested in how close I have to get to that goal to make it worth my while to time.

Please do your calculations in excel and post your work so that we may review it. I mean this with all sincerity, I would appreciate the effort.

Thank you.
 
A Perfect Display of Why Market Timing Doesn’t Work

A group of 48 Federal Employee Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) investors tracked their returns from Jan 1 2006 to Nov 24 2006 at TSPtalk.com. These investors changed their asset allocations on average 37.6 times over the 11 month study period, with the most frequent trader swapping 157 times, (impressive given the fact that the NYSE was only open 226 days.) As the TSP is a tax-deferred, no-fee plan these traders incurred NO transaction costs. Their investment options include 4 very low cost index funds which mimic the S&P 500, the Wilshire 4500, the EAFE, and the Lehman Bros Bond Index, and a special fund called the G fund, which essentially has the return of a medium-term government bond fund with the risk of a money market fund. There are also 5 “lifecycle” funds within the TSP program, but these are infrequently used by these investors. Transactions requested prior to noon Eastern time take place at the close of business that same day.

The individual fund returns for the study period were:
G Fund (Treasuries): 4.48%
F Fund (Lehman Bond): 4.50%
C Fund (S&P 500): 14.17%
S Fund (Wilshire 4500): 15.43%
I Fund (EAFE): 21.15%

The mean return for these investors was 11.64%. The median return was 11.97%. The best return was 22.16%. The worst return was -4.01. The standard deviation of returns was 5.45%.

Comparison against appropriate indexes would be appropriate:
Perhaps the best comparison for these relatively aggressive investors would be against an all-stock “Total Global Market” portfolio (50% I, 39% C, 11% S), which bested 92% of them. Even an all-stock buy-and-hold investor who feared foreign markets and invested only in the “Total US Stock Market” portfolio (78% C, 22% S) would have beaten 35% of investors. Only 52% (not statistically significantly different from ½) of investors topped a “know-nothing” portfolio of 20% in each of the 5 funds. Even the average lifecycle fund investor (who often held a large percentage of relatively low-performing fixed income) bested 46% of these traders.

But what about the “Warren Buffets” of the group. Surely there must be at least a few very talented traders in this group. In a random distribution, one would expect approximately 2.5% (or about 1 trader) to perform better than 2 standard deviations above the mean. In fact, no traders managed this feat, suggesting that the outperformance of their top performers was less likely to be due to skill than sheer luck. In fact, a distribution of monkeys throwing darts to choose their allocations would likely have produced a higher performer than these 48 investors. One would also expect 16.9% of investors to perform better than 1 standard deviation above the mean. In fact, only 14.5% of investors did so.

It is noteworthy that these investors were functioning in a “zero-sum” game, quite different from the typical investor, in that they pay no portfolio fees (aside from the miniscule ERs of the individual funds), no transaction costs, and no taxes on gains. If these traders had been operating in a typical investing environment, their transaction costs and taxes would have made their performance even more dismal.

The correlation coefficient between # of trades and return was 0.048, which means there was no significant benefit to trading more often.


Oh Boy, this should be fun!

Your article should be why most day traders don't beat the market. Not Why Market Timing Doesn't work. Market Timing DOES NOT MEAN TRADING 20 TIMES A MONTH. Thats day trading. The Top Timers I follow beat the Market overtime.

Compare your data to Professional Market Timers, and Buy and Hold folks lose money. Bob Brinker is a Market Timer last buy signal 2003. Day traders are different from true Market Timers and Trend traders. Some of the folks on the board might not like being called traders, but they are.


Run the data for year 2000 (-9.14 ) 2001 ( -11.94 ) 2002 ( -22.05 )

I made money during these years because I get Bob Brinker's
( MARKETTIMER ) newsletter.

Gave a sell signal in early 2000. I could post many articles why Market Timing does work, but whats the point. It's like going into a cigar store and telling people cigars are bad for you.

I do respect your opinion. We will again have a Bear market and you and many other buy and hold folks can ride it down.

However, when Bob Brinker gives me a sell signal I will no longer own stocks. One of the Greatest MARKETTIMERS of all Times. The Top Timers are mostly Bullish so buy and hold for now and buying the dips will work. It's a paid service so we can't show returns, but some beat the market.

It's easy to pick and chose your data. I do respect your opinion and I make very few moves in my TSP account. Please look at my data below. Looks like the Market Timer did ok!

5 years ended 6-30-06 for all Model Portfolios:
Portfolio I: 75%
Portfolio II: 72%
Portfolio III: 52% (balanced portfolio with 50% fixed-income position)
Active/Passive: 64% (this portfolio started March 1997)
Total Stock Market Index: 21% (VTSMX)
S&P 500: 12%


http://www.bobbrinker.com/portfolio.asp

http://www.timerdigest.com/


My point is your general opinion of Market Timing is incorrect and Bob's data proves that. However, Bob is a Top Timer!

Take Care and it was a very good article, and I agree with most of what you said. Call it daytrading and I agree with everthing.

I also like the L Funds for most folks.

Back to the Cave.
 
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The trouble with statistics.....

Your group has problems. Not all investors listed have the goal of having high risk, high gains at all cost. There are investors in that group that have capital preservation as a goal because they are retired or nearing retirement. You have an investor, Rod who has the negative return, who was aggresive and then bcause of job duties and an inability to follow the market went 100% G and thus had no chance to recover from the May market correction. You have others who have gone inactive and just haven't dropped off the list yet.

That being said, your point is well taken. Being a market timer ain't easy. The true numbers are not as bad as you have painted them, but we do have a number of folks who would have done better in L2040.

Last year 11 of the 12 people who had complete year returns beat the S&P 500. The one person who did not was Safetyguy who is nearing retirement and is more conservative. Last years final result. Last year also backs up the claims that it is easier to beat the market when the market is not as strong as this year.
 
In a random distribution, one would expect approximately 2.5% (or about 1 trader) to perform better than 2 standard deviations above the mean. In fact, no traders managed this feat, suggesting that the out performance of their top performers was less likely to be due to skill than sheer luck.

Desperado,

I don't disagree with your general conclusions.

However, since my statistics are very rusty, would you elaborate on why, statistically, this nearly normal return distribution suggests that the out performance displayed by the top traders, i.e. FundSurfer, Griffin, Show-me, and Sugar and Spice, is due to luck? Note, this is the second year that Show-me has demonstrated outstanding, market beating performance. The other top traders were not tracked for a full year in 2005.
 
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Desperado,

You may want to go back and review your statistics. You are describing the group using a symmetrical distribution based on a simple linear regression analysis. In fact, the distribution of the group should be based on resistant measures of spread. Which means you need to begin your analysis buy applying a function such as a five number summary interquartile range analysis. There are several reason for this, first you have to look at the funds themselves and what the statistical limiting factors of those are. You also have to look at the tailed statistics of the distribution of daily returns. In a bull market, the market will typically yield more green days with relative lower average returns and fewer red days with greater negative returns. This has a profound effect on the potential distributions.

Personally, I have no desire to go back and reteach myself semesters of statsical analysis that I have not used in 10 years. However, the fundamentals of your statistics are not applicable to the situation. If you performed the kind of applicable statistical analysis I have briefly described, I believe you would find it highly unlikely that any of us would actually beat the best performing fund under a random distribution.

But if you care to do the math, I would be interested in seeing that also.
 
Desperado said:
In fact, a distribution of monkeys throwing darts to choose their allocations would likely have produced a higher performer than these 48 investors.

Could you please perform this study and video tape it? I want to see how many monkeys get hit with the darts. I hope it starts a big monkey brawl. That would be a great, entertaining film.
 
Yeah! What they said.
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Re: A Study of the "GREAT DESPERADO" Returns.

So Desperado... lets cut the numerical psycho-babble. Since you appear to be privy to all our investment snafu's, perhaps you can show us all a better way to handle our TSP. What's your TSP return; same year to date period please?

Oh. I see you don't post your TSP moves, market position, or discuss the issues. :(
 
If the market should happen to fall 5% or 10% in the next few weeks (OK, big IF) that would turn your study on its head since many of us are in defensive mode. That's because an 11 month snapshot isn't a great window for a study of long-term investing strategies. I stunk this year, no doubt. I notice you didn't mention that TSP Talk beat the S&P by 22% during the prior 6 year period from 2000 to 2005. But I guess you wouldn't want to mention that since it goes against your agenda. ;)

I'm curious if you will keep the study going? I see you began it with data in January but ended it in November. Why not wait for the year to finish?

T
 
Calculate what a buy and hold strategy would have returned for each of the stock funds for the past ten complete years (1996-2005) given a starting amount of 100K and assuming no additional contributions, and then calculate what the return of a person who missed the top performing fund (i.e. underperformed the best performing of the funds) annually by 0%, 1%, 2%, 3% etc... until you have sufficiently bracketed the buy and hold strategies.

Please do your calculations in excel and post your work so that we may review it. I mean this with all sincerity, I would appreciate the effort.

Thank you.

Interesting. I'm kind of curious too, and it certainly won't take much effort. I'll get back to you. And please don't feel badly being called a Warren Buffett. Several of you had awesome returns this year, so my hat's off to you. But be careful that what is oftentimes skill turns out in the long run to be luck.

Five tears, don't get all hot and bothered. It wouldn't do me or you much good to post what I do with my TSP as it is a relatively small portion of my total investment funds, and use it for only some of the asset classes I hold. I currently hold G, S, and I funds, but only because I hold the equivalent of C in a Roth IRA, and several other asset classes unavailable in the TSP elsewhere (TIPS, REITS, emerging markets etc.) My point is that how I invest should have nothing to do with how you invest. You should simply look at the data, and consider it when you develop an investment strategy. Is it possible to outperform a simple buy and hold strategy? Absolutely. But it is equally, if not more likely, that you will underperform it. How would you feel to be one of the investors sitting on a 5% return this year when everything but bonds are going through the roof? I submit over an investment lifetime it is much more important not to underperform than it is to outperform. But since you're interested, my return this year is 13.4% so far (ahead of about 58% of those in the study), my market position is "I don't know and I don't care" and the issue is "Is Market Timing Worth the Time and Effort?" My review of the data suggests that no, it isn't.

Fundsurfer, some of your criticisms are valid. It is true that some of those investing probably are NOT taking higher risks and an appropriate "index" to compare those few against might be the L income fund. But without knowing each of you personally, that's a tough thing to measure. I think you would probably agree that most of you going to the effort to study the markets are trying to get the best return you can. And obviously, I cannot tell those who "dropped out." But any good study will include those persons in the final result to avoid what is called survival bias.

Considering last year's data, sure, almost all of you beat the S&P 500. But is that really a fair benchmark given the fact that you can invest in foreign stocks and small stocks? Probably not. Even using a simple benchmark like 20% each shows that only 8/12 beat "the market." If you use a more appropriate 1/3 I, 1/3 S, 1/3 C, only 4 out of 12 beat "the market."

Other criticisms of this study could be that it includes only 48 people. It would be a lot better if there were 200-300, but maybe next year, if all those who have signed on keep going. It would also be better if it were over a longer period of time, especially if that included a few years of a bull market and a few years of a bear market. But I don't have that data, so you have to take what you've got. But what you've got has to at least give some of you something to think about. Is a guaranteed decent relative return better than underperforming in the hopes of being one of the few who outperform?

And Griffin, perhaps you should brush off those old stats textbooks and perform a five number summary interquartile range analysis after adjusting the data for resistant measures of spread. I couldn't quite figure out how to get excel to do that. I suspect it wouldn't change the fundamental conclusions that can be drawn from this brief study, but if YOU would like to do the math, I'd be interested. I don't claim to be a statistical genius, but I'm wouldn't mind learning more.

Rokid, in a symmetrical distribution, you would expect 66% of returns to be within one standard deviation of the mean, or 33% more, and 33% less. You therefore expect 34% to be outside of that standard deviation. You expect 95% of people to be within two standard deviations of the mean, 47.5% above, and 47.5% below the mean. Therefore, in a normal, random distribution, 2.5% of returns should be more than 2 standard deviations above the mean. If jumping in and out of funds really worked, I would expect there to be more than 2.5% of people who are more than 2 standard deviations above the average return (however you choose to define that.) Since there are NONE, it can be implied that jumping in and out of funds actually decreases your returns. Naturally, with only 48 people in the study, that probably isn't statistically significant, but the trend is concerning. Try this site for more info on standard deviation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

And Ghageman, please don't bring mutual fund managers into this. That's why the TSP consists of index funds to start with. If you think jumping in and out of funds is bad, wait until you find out what happens to mutual fund returns as the managers jump in and out of stocks. Transaction costs and taxes actually count in that game. If you think comparing yourself to mutual fund managers is a good idea might I suggest Common Sense on Mutual Funds by Bogle?

And Robo...Bob Brinker has an excellent track record, so far. But how were we supposed to know that at the beginning when we could have benefitted from that track record? Are you familiar with Mark Huhlbert's ongoing study of investment newsletters? This quote is from an article in 98, and current data isn't much better:


Two decades later, the timers seem hopelessly out of sync. We asked The Hulbert Financial Digest (703 683-5905), which tracks investment newsletters, to measure market-timing advice tailored to mutual-fund investors. In all, publisher Mark Hulbert identified 25 newsletters with 32 portfolios, since some newsletters have more than one timing model. Hulbert's conclusion: None of the newsletter timers beat the market. For the 10 years that ended Dec. 31, the timers' annual average total returns ranged from 16.9% to 5.84%. The average return was 11.06%. During the same period, the Standard & Poor's 500-stock index earned 18.06% annually, and the Wilshire 5000 Value-Weighted Total Return Index, a broader measure of market performance, 17.57%.
 
I got the biggest return on my paragraphical investment right there. My paragraphs the biggest.

Invested 57 Words: 320% Returned
BOOYAH! :D :nuts:
 
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